Sovereign Class - Durability Issues

posted on March 28th, 2009, 10:05 pm

why are we still beating this dead horse? are we that bored? If we have nothing better to do then at least talk about something else that is equally pointless at this time - say 3rd avatars or cardies etc lol.
but give the sovies a break at least. 

posted on March 28th, 2009, 10:36 pm

@ branbauer im saying replace old models with new models

@ dominous
yes i know fed are a defending race, i like to defend, that why i like to defend, howeve, it is not canon for the fed to be just a defending race, that my main issue with them, i have always seen the fed, as a race concerned first and formost with its saftey, but it is also a very sceitific race, and i dont see this reflected, the feds liek to upgrade there ships constantly, i dont see this reflected in the game, and while they have alot of defendign ships, the defiant was built purley as an offensive ship, the sovy, was built to be the most poweful ship, yet at 36 attack, and 960 dilithium, i dont see alot of this reflected in sovy, its defense it not paticulary high, and its attack seems low for that much di, same with the descent, you can onlky get to, yet it only has like 66 defenseand 36 offense, for a scientific race, i see this hard to belive, also the pormethius was built for its special mulit vector assault yet we dont see it in fleet ops at all,

and also, i am sick of people accusing me that i want all the races to be the same, what i want to do, and am trying to do is make the feds more unique:

different ships, a unique sense of science, section 31, a different type of warpin, starships seperation, a system of upgrading, a system of refiting, nebula pods, miranda 2 being standard, more chassis, diferent values, different types of stations,

i started many of those posts and supported all of those, and many other, to promot fed uniqness and other race uniqness, however i do not see the fed being that defiend, nor kligon (and dominion somwhat) what i see is an awsome system for borg, an awsome system of cloaking, refiting, ans spying for roms, and the others seem to be left out, and not getting so much attention, ive brought attention to this, mostly fed and kligon, but somwhat with the dominion

there is no race that i dont like, i dont want the feds to be a god race, like some other races are now, and i hate people accusing other people with ides (not just me) of suggesting changes for feds, it seems like everyone else, want an easy race to beat,

bottom line is, that feds kligons, and dominion need some uniqness to them, and some attention to

posted on March 28th, 2009, 11:35 pm

The Federation ARE defensive, almost by definition. They do not initiate hostility between races.

The defiant is not an offensive ship, it is a warship yes but it was designed purely for defense against a borg incursion.

posted on March 29th, 2009, 12:37 am

The Federation ARE defensive, almost by definition. They do not initiate hostility between races.

The defiant is not an offensive ship, it is a warship yes but it was designed purely for defense against a borg incursion.

That's peaceful, defensive races try to fight only by protecting themsevles and not attacking others. The Federation is quite willing to attack if they have to.

Defiant was designed to kill things (like Borg), if something was designed to protect by destroying the intruder it should qualify as offensive.

posted on March 29th, 2009, 1:20 am

Defiant was designed to kill things (like Borg), if something was designed to protect by destroying the intruder it should qualify as offensive.

no. if it kills the intruder it is not offense it is still defense.
the idea of offense is being the intruder and being able to stand your ground as attacker.

posted on March 29th, 2009, 1:34 am

@ branbauer im saying replace old models with new models

Why would the FO team replace perfectly good models there are nothing wrong with the current models.

posted on March 29th, 2009, 3:17 am

because the feds need some new things! some new spice and flare! somthing different,and a new system of upgrades or somthing

now for the whole offenseive defensive thing, we know, feds are a peacful race(i like that word better) they do not go out and attack, but that is not to say that they dont have offensive ships,

posted on March 29th, 2009, 4:35 am

Then play a different race if the Feds don't suit you.
They have strong defense as their defining characteristic (with support ships which enhance a fleet's offense/defense). Sovereign is not expensive at all as far as capital ships go; in fact all Federation ships are mid range in terms of the cheapness scale.

Your points are invalid.

Federation defense is only MINOR above other races, a difference so small that in most cases it does not matter.

Sovereign Example 1:
XPlevel = 1
maxHealth = 264
maxShields = 885
healthRate = 1.370
shieldRate = 2.739
shieldGeneratorHitPoints = 76
enginesHitPoints = 76
weaponsHitPoints = 76
lifeSupportHitPoints = 76
sensorsHitPoints = 76
maxSpecialEnergy = 431
specialEnergyRate = 3.592
buildTime = 106
crewCost = 400
dilithiumCost = 777
tritanCost = 231
supplyCost = 24
worthXP = 100
rangeScan = 850


NeghVar Example 1:
XPlevel = 1
maxHealth = 308
maxShields = 781
healthRate = 0.948
shieldRate = 1.897
shieldGeneratorHitPoints = 78
enginesHitPoints = 78
weaponsHitPoints = 78
lifeSupportHitPoints = 78
sensorsHitPoints = 78
maxSpecialEnergy = 279
specialEnergyRate = 2.325
buildTime = 94
crewCost = 335
dilithiumCost = 679
tritanCost = 166
supplyCost = 25
worthXP = 102
rangeScan = 800


Total difference in health: 60

Sovereign Example 2:
XPlevel = 5
maxHealth = 328
maxShields = 1099
healthRate = 1.591
shieldRate = 3.183
shieldGeneratorHitPoints = 91
enginesHitPoints = 91
weaponsHitPoints = 91
lifeSupportHitPoints = 91
sensorsHitPoints = 91
maxSpecialEnergy = 476
specialEnergyRate = 3.967
buildTime = 106
crewCost = 400
dilithiumCost = 777
tritanCost = 231
supplyCost = 24
worthXP = 125
rangeScan = 850


NeghVar Example 2:
XPlevel = 5
maxHealth = 370
maxShields = 939
healthRate = 1.127
shieldRate = 2.255
shieldGeneratorHitPoints = 92
enginesHitPoints = 92
weaponsHitPoints = 92
lifeSupportHitPoints = 92
sensorsHitPoints = 92
maxSpecialEnergy = 321
specialEnergyRate = 2.675
buildTime = 94
crewCost = 335
dilithiumCost = 679
tritanCost = 166
supplyCost = 25
worthXP = 130
rangeScan = 800

Total difference in health: 118

So much to the topic of "Federation has much better defense. And consider that this is compared to the klingons, who have weak defense in general.

The Negh´Var clearly outclasses the Soverein, yet it is considerable cheaper.


To the topic of the models. They models are great - however we are 10 years after the end of the Dominon War - one would expect more modern ships instead of aging refits.

posted on March 29th, 2009, 6:36 am

Actually, Dominus’ point is valid.  Yours are not. 

Federation defense is noticable above other races, a difference large enough I’m not sure how you missed it.

While I’m sure picking Martok’s NeghVar(with his free +8 to defensive value) helps your case a bunch, it’s not a fair assessment.  You need to compare the baseline stats for each vessel.  Here is what your example should have looked like, taken from the correct odfs.

Sovereign Example 1:
dilithiumCost = 777
tritanCost = 231
supplyCost = 24
worthXP = 100
XPlevel = 1
nextrankClass = "fed_sovereignr2"
nextrankXP = 54
maxHealth = 264
curHealth = 264
healthRate = 1.100
maxShields = 885
curShields = 885
shieldRate = 2.201

NeghVar Example 1:
dilithiumCost = 679
tritanCost = 166
supplyCost = 25
worthXP = 102
XPlevel = 1
nextrankClass = "kli_neghvarr2"
nextrankXP = 55
maxHealth = 247
curHealth = 247
healthRate = 0.871
maxShields = 626
curShields = 626
shieldRate = 1.742

Total difference in health:  276

Sovereign Example 2:
XPlevel = 5
maxHealth = 328
curHealth = 328
healthRate = 1.312
maxShields = 1099
curShields = 1099
shieldRate = 2.624

NeghVar example 2:
XPlevel = 5
maxHealth = 308
curHealth = 308
healthRate = 1.048
maxShields = 781
curShields = 781
shieldRate = 2.097

Total difference in health:  338

That's a big difference from 60/118.  You also picked Risner’s stats instead of Ben Mayson’s :2guns:.  Her sovereign doesn’t have the baseline stats either, as the increased system value she grants increases the shield and hull regeneration rates of the sov.  You should have used Mayson’s.  

So much to the topic of "Federation has much better defense. And consider that this is compared to the klingons, who have weak defense in general.

I guess the federation aren’t that bad after all!

posted on March 29th, 2009, 7:42 am

idk wtf you guys are talking about, i dont understand, what i do understand, is a nevargh cost 600 di, and can take out a 900 di sovy with no hull damage

posted on March 29th, 2009, 8:00 am

To the topic of the models. They models are great - however we are 10 years after the end of the Dominon War - one would expect more modern ships instead of aging refits.

Actually, that's exactly what you should expect from the Federation - aging refits (mainly Excelsiors and Mirandas) seemed to make up the bulk of the Federation fleets during the Dominion War, and they were both almost 100 years old. Why would the Federation not be using the same newer ship classes they were using during the Dominion War a mere 10 years later?

posted on March 29th, 2009, 4:18 pm

Well, too bad you didn't read Mal's post then Ray:
Sovereign Example 1:
dilithiumCost = 777
tritanCost = 231
supplyCost = 24

NeghVar Example 1:
dilithiumCost = 679
tritanCost = 166
supplyCost = 25

Hardly 900 and 600 dilithium

BUT regardless of these stats, the point remains that ON THE WHOLE (as in EVERY SINGLE SHIP), the Federation has a significantly higher defense and somewhat lower offense then the Klingons. Of course, the Klingons have cheaper ships in most cases to make up for this issue.

posted on March 29th, 2009, 4:31 pm

Actually, that's exactly what you should expect from the Federation - aging refits (mainly Excelsiors and Mirandas) seemed to make up the bulk of the Federation fleets during the Dominion War, and they were both almost 100 years old. Why would the Federation not be using the same newer ship classes they were using during the Dominion War a mere 10 years later?

I would bet the Federation lost a lot more aging refits in combat during the Dominion War than newer ships like the Akira-, Galaxy-, or Norway-classes. And I'll bet they commissioned a lot more newer ships to replace them during postwar reconstruction.

But if we're using Star Trek Online as a reference point, we do know that at least some Miranda-class refits were still in use as of the early 25th century.

posted on March 29th, 2009, 4:49 pm

I would bet the Federation lost a lot more aging refits in combat during the Dominion War than newer ships like the Akira-, Galaxy-, or Norway-classes. And I'll bet they commissioned a lot more newer ships to replace them during postwar reconstruction.

But if we're using Star Trek Online as a reference point, we do know that at least some Miranda-class refits were still in use as of the early 25th century.

I agree that they probably lost more of the aging refits than the newer ships, but what I was trying to say was that Starfleet would probably still be using the newer designs from the Dominion War era (such as the Akira, Galaxy, Norway etc) in the Fleetops era, since they have a history of using a design to it's longest possible potential - the Excelsior/Miranda "lifetime" had more or less come to an end, but I don't think they'd be replacing the Akira, Galaxy, Norway or any of the other newer designs a mere 10/20 years after they entered service. Also, since in FleetOps you can get the original Excelsior-class as a warp-in, it implies that Starfleet hasn't completely finished phasing them out in favour of the newer designs.

posted on March 29th, 2009, 5:29 pm

I agree that they probably lost more of the aging refits than the newer ships, but what I was trying to say was that Starfleet would probably still be using the newer designs from the Dominion War era (such as the Akira, Galaxy, Norway etc) in the Fleetops era, since they have a history of using a design to it's longest possible potential - the Excelsior/Miranda "lifetime" had more or less come to an end, but I don't think they'd be replacing the Akira, Galaxy, Norway or any of the other newer designs a mere 10/20 years after they entered service. Also, since in FleetOps you can get the original Excelsior-class as a warp-in, it implies that Starfleet hasn't completely finished phasing them out in favour of the newer designs.

And I wouldn't expect them to, but I definitely don't think Starfleet would be commissioning new Miranda-, Soyuz-, and Excelsior-class ships (unless they were successor models like the Excelsior-II in Fleet Ops) in the 2370s, 2380s, and 2390s. (What year is Fleet Ops set, anyway?)