Sovereign Class - Durability Issues

posted on March 24th, 2009, 4:35 pm

Probably on a non-canon, higly 'improvised' site.

That's what I was thinking too - the only time the Norexan has been seen in canon (afaik) is in Nemesis and there was nothing along those lines in the film, and nothing seen to suggest that they were vastly inferior to the Sovvie

posted on March 24th, 2009, 5:04 pm

That's what I was thinking too - the only time the Norexan has been seen in canon (afaik) is in Nemesis and there was nothing along those lines in the film, and nothing seen to suggest that they were vastly inferior to the Sovvie

Except that they were taken out rather quickly...

posted on March 24th, 2009, 5:08 pm

Except that they were taken out rather quickly...

Wasn't Shinzon still trying to get Picard when the Romulans joined?

[Anonymous]

posted on March 24th, 2009, 5:25 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on March 24th, 2009, 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Except that they were taken out rather quickly...

one could also say that the norexan bore the brunt of the Scimitar's full attack as Shinzon had no qualms about destroying them.
The enterprise was needed intact as he still wanted Picard for the transfusion.

IMO the Sovs have greater durability than the norexans, and the battle with the Scimitar did demonstrate that.


In game stats placing Sovs at 42, with the norexan at 44 is kinda in line with what was seen of the Sovs and Norexans in Nemesis where the norexan did do a little more damage to shinzon's ship than the enterprise was able to do - guess due to the disruptors.
A point to note is that we did not see the quantums in actions as most torps fired missed the mark. The sov offense vs the norexan's current stats may need further clarification.

But Sov defense does need to be more than the norexan as that was clearly seen when the scimitar hit the norexans. I think the akira's special ability being ported over to the Sov will help in this regard.

Unless the FO team argues back that the current Norexan has its stats after it was modified by the Rommies when they saw the enterprise in action and gauged Fed flagship strength in combat.

posted on March 24th, 2009, 9:57 pm

Guys, this argument is getting to the point of the galaxy class argument, so after reading up everything let me revise what i have said.

although i do not see how to races can be equal when ones ships are less or just as powerful but cost more, maybye i do not see the whle picutre, maybye feds support ships and they way they build make them just as even with every race when used right, i still disagree with that, i would argue that the balacnce formulas are wrong, but perhaps not

however i hope that we can all agree on a few points

#1 the sovy attack need to be increased to 40-42, maybye defense by one point

#2 defiant needs its balace changed as it is more of a offesive ship, so instead of 38 defense, 36 offense, 39 offense, 36 defense

#3 descent needs some more kick in terms of offense, maybye about 45, as it shud be most powerful fed ship, and maybye a slight defense increase

and then maybye a slight phalanx increase

thats it, i think that will help to adress some of the main issues with fed, ive made a compromise with what i want, i hope you others can do the same, and we can all agree on this

posted on March 24th, 2009, 10:02 pm

by saying that the defiant is more offense oriented on the field does not actually merit an inverse offense defense stat.
The defiant was strong on the battlefield, but was not as able as the Sov. Also, it was not in the same league as a galaxy in terms of number of banks etc.
the current defiant stats are fine. especially if compared to the d'Deridex or klingon ships.

sov attack needs to be above 40 for sure, especially if the norexan is at 44.

descent is fine atm, and fits in well with the rest of the balance of the feds.

IMHO.

posted on March 24th, 2009, 10:34 pm

I am in full agreement with Serpicus, and I don't think that the Sov needs a special weapon change.  I mean, come on! The Feds rush up the techtree so quickly and cheaply that you'll have the Sov in early-game phases! Get rid of engines, do some damage, pull out and let the Defiant work it's magic! And may I remind you that it is the Main Battleship with the longest range and defense  ?

posted on March 24th, 2009, 11:03 pm

I am in full agreement with Serpicus, and I don't think that the Sov needs a special weapon change.  I mean, come on! The Feds rush up the techtree so quickly and cheaply that you'll have the Sov in early-game phases! Get rid of engines, do some damage, pull out and let the Defiant work it's magic!

LOL

Fast? Maybe, but

CHEAP?????? 

Feds are an rather expensive race.

The engine overload does not suit the Sovereign. Besides, its tactical effect is quite minor in most cases.

And may I remind you that it is the Main Battleship with the longest range and defense  ?

And may I remind you, that it is also

- very expensive
- weakly armed
- easily destroyed

I took a look into the odfs, yes the Sovereign has a bit stronger shields then the NeghVar. But the NeghVar has stronger hull for that, not to mention considerable more firepower that allows him to destroy the enemy faster, leading to less damage.

Range is a nice plus - but in most cases not something that decides a game, especially not if it is only the difference between medium and short.

posted on March 24th, 2009, 11:09 pm

The best in terms of crew experience. Technology-wise, it is identical to every other Sovereign.

Without the crew the ship wouldn't function.  There's probably plenty of instances in Star Trek as a whole where the Flagships have functioned better than other ships of the same class simply because of the crew.  So my original statement is still valid...Sovereign ships are fine the way they are.  The only thing they might want to change is the special...which, to my knowledge, they are doing.

posted on March 24th, 2009, 11:15 pm

although i do not see how to races can be equal when ones ships are less or just as powerful but cost more, maybye i do not see the whle picutre, maybye feds support ships and they way they build make them just as even with every race when used right, i still disagree with that, i would argue that the balacnce formulas are wrong, but perhaps not

Ray, that particular statement makes it sound like you're used to RTS games where you spam your end unit until you wipe-out the rest of the players.  I've said this on other posts and I'm sure others have as well, but FO is very well-balanced atm, with a few tweaks here or there.  Each fleet(s) success or failure depends on setup AND player control. 

[tom]

posted on March 26th, 2009, 1:15 am

Last edited by tom on March 26th, 2009, 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

although i do not see how to races can be equal when ones ships are less or just as powerful but cost more, maybye i do not see the whle picutre, maybye feds support ships and they way they build make them just as even with every race when used right, i still disagree with that, i would argue that the balacnce formulas are wrong, but perhaps not

again, i'm happy to be of assistance as after reading some of ur post i figured that u don't see the picture (some of ur other ideas were interesting btw):
i will try to analyse a fed vs dom matchup for u (please people don't kill me for this, it's just for the sake of agrument and it's only an example. long & boring i know):

let's start with the fed player. he/she goes shipyard -> shipyard -> expansion. 2nd worker mining st -> mining st -> and now if i see dom player goes one shipyard then i go 2nd expansion or science statoin for norway if dom player goes for 2 shipyards. let's just assume that we have 2nd option.

the dom player goes the same. 2 shipyards, 2 mining st, 1 expansion.

and now the feds magic kicks in. as the fed player can be quite comfortable with sabers & norways, the dom player needs to tech to breen cruisers/war frigate/heavy cruiser. whatever he chooses he/she must build supply station in order to get more supplies. plus he must get turrets to counter early harassment as bugs r no good vs norways&sabers. this puts him behind about 600d&400t. to make the matter worse the fed turret system makes it quite cheap to defend the fed's 1st expansion as u pay 100d&50t and upgrade turret when it's needed. now the fed player takes another expansion as the dom player techs to better ships.

now we go to the mid-game with feds having 1d&1t moons more then dom. let's say the fed player goes for itrepid&canaveral combo that counters breen cruiser/war frigate easily. with this advantage the fed player can take yet one more expansion while the dom player techs.

when the first sov even appears the fed player already has 2d&2t moons more then the dom player. so what breen battleship is better then the sov. the feds economy is twice as strong as the doms.

if somebody wants to say that the dom player can go straight for breen battleships then don't. this way of playing is more like a simcity builder not rts. strangly players that do that don't like harassment, i wonder why 

if u go straight for late-game ships without building your economy first u will loose. that is way feds late-game may be seen as weak.

the challange here for the fed player is to recognise when to expand and to deny expanding to the dom player. if the fed player goes to late-game having the same number of moons as the dom player it just means that the fed player played the game badly and should loose.

if the sov was as good as the breen battleship it would bring major inbalance to the game as good fed players would just outmacro the dom in the early-game and kill it with ease in the late-game.

hope somebody was patient enough to read all this. now the rest of ur post:

#1 the sovy attack need to be increased to 40-42, maybye defense by one point

no

#2 defiant needs its balace changed as it is more of a offesive ship, so instead of 38 defense, 36 offense, 39 offense, 36 defense

no

#3 descent needs some more kick in terms of offense, maybye about 45, as it shud be most powerful fed ship, and maybye a slight defense increase

no

so there is at least one person that does not agree.

posted on March 26th, 2009, 2:23 am

yay sombody thinks that some of my ideas are interesting, its nice to finally hear somone who isnt critisising

as for bottom part of your post,

you put no no no, well again i disagree, it should be yes yes yes

as for the rest, i would disagree, let me just say how i build when im feds(and most races)


it stars out, dark, cold, in space, suddenly, a station pops out, and so do two construction ships,
basically from that point both ships build mining, while my starbase, builds one to two more contruction ship, and then goes to miners, after my two mining is done(then my 1st construction is done) , i send one to build shipyard, one to build sceicne, and the other to build mining, by the time those stations are done, i have 4 stattions, so i set about 2 to finish up mining and start defenses for mining, and then the other two to building stations, and seting up defeses, my starbase, is pumping out mining ships sop i can get my mining up, and i start pumping out sabers, till i can get intrepids and akiras, after one more stage of building(stations) i can get my warp in, and advanced starbase, (at this point i am usually chassis 2, starting on 3) i warp in imediatly(the normal warp in) and by that time start on excelsiors (at this point i stop production on intrepids and akiras) if i have any leftover money at this point, i do special weapons, and then sheild and weapons upgrades, + defense platforms, then when i have chasiss level 3 and can sustain constant advanced shipyard production, i build another, haveing two run simaltaneoulsy, then after that, i attack

posted on March 26th, 2009, 2:58 am

It´s amazing how some threads are twisted and turned up and down till they´re so far from the original intent that nobody even remembers what it was about.

The thread started with the question if the sovereign class is as durable in battle as it should. Then it turned into an endless debate about sovies against negh´vars, and as a bonus testing methods were discussed.

And finally we arrived at the final stage by (once again ) arguing about what faction is the most powerful.
Don´t get me wrong, it´s quite natural to get lost in the argument, but maybe we should focus on the sovereigns durability.

While it is true that the sovie doesn´t perform like the most advanced ship class the feds have, we have to remeber that FO takes place some time after the class was build, so maybe other classes are simply more advanced now, like the descent or the phalanx. All i would ask for, and i guess that´s more reasonable than just adding +10 to any value, is a different special . I´d like something specifically designed for the sovie, but just switching specials with the akira is okay (and would not require that much work for the FO team). That way the durability of the sovie is increased without making it an unrestricted fed tavara ( ).

posted on March 26th, 2009, 3:02 am

It is pretty much confirmed that switching the 2 specials will happen. I can't imagine any other changes that would be needed.

posted on March 26th, 2009, 4:10 am

then if sovie is outdated, put in a fricken promethius class