Sovereign Class - Durability Issues

posted on March 12th, 2009, 9:16 pm

lol 
I love seeing this Sov negh thing go on and on... lol

posted on March 12th, 2009, 9:22 pm

Hmmm, did you try microing both, Ray? A Sovereign has longer range than a Negh'var, and as long as it can outrun it, it will beat it. 

posted on March 12th, 2009, 9:51 pm

Well that is obvious since the Negh'Var is a battleship killer, the strenght of its torpedoes are a proof of that. Try putting those 2 ships against large numbers of destroyers and see who destroyes the most ships

What Im trying to say is, that their role in the fleet is different.

It would be like it pit a dominion bomber vs the bug ship and because the bug ship would win, Id start saying the bomber is unbalanced :-S It doesnt always go like that, you have to consider other factors as well

posted on March 12th, 2009, 10:12 pm

optec, you of all people should know, that you can only get two descents, and they dont add up to nevargh,

all that the fleet ops team has said is that it adds up  to the balanc forumlas, well how can this be true!

when a defiant, and soverign cost more then a nevargm and a excelsior costs barley less then it, yet the soverign(which costs 100 more), is more then 14 points below in offense, and the nevargh, is only two points behind in defense, i thought kligon was the attacking race, and the fed was defending(save for the defiant)

and you guys can not tell me that the descent is supposed to be the soulution to the nevargh, oh yeah, 2 descents against a fleet of nevarghs, right....

now, it would be one thing if the phalanx was cheaper, and you could build more then 8 of them and they had better stats, but they dont,

and although i like the idea of having very good defense, thats not how it is now, feds need to be looked at

and so do kligons, i love there nevargh and how powerful it is, but they dont have much of special weapons,

but really, make the sovie a ship the feds can be proud off, or give us the promethius, or somthing else

and i dont see how you can say the fed has a better deal, yeah, by paying 900 dilithium to get 2 descents, and maybye 2 more once the first ones are destryoed, of course, that completely evens it out between the feds and kligons,

i thought that some of this was about bsalance, where is it?

I agree completly

and the descent is completely cost free... 

Besides, if it is 3000 money who make you loose, then nobody can help you anymore. So I dont think the "free" thing is anything major.

Ray, you seem to be forgetting about one thing: The Federation has (relatively speaking) long-ranged weapons. The Excelsior-II has artillery-ranged weaponry at officer rank, no vessel besides torpedo vessels has that. The Phalanx has the longest-ranged weaponry of main battleships, but it's too slow to run from a Negh-Var. The Sov is the most well-rounded battleship, it's pretty fast, has medium-ranged weaponry, and can beat a Negh-Var by running. And then there's the Descent. It's arguably better than a Tavara, because it a) is faster, b) has three lives, c) can Burstfire it's torpedoes, d) this is a big one, it's free  e) it can beat a Negh-Var one 1-1. I honestly don't see what's wrong overall with the Feds, other than spamming.  Back on topic: The Sov most definitely needs a boost in shields, but it's special is fine, and so is it's weaponry. Remember that it can take down a bunch of fighters with 1 blast, clearing the way for the rest of your battalion!  

Yes, it is. But 2 free ships want change the fate of the game.

The problem is, that this is not the way fleet battles usually work. When the enemy is attacking your base, you cant simple withdraw the full range, they will destroy your base then. The Tavara is far better than the descent, it does actually the same thing, just better. It is a meatshield. NeghVar beating is not relevant, as you can have only very few of them.


NeghVars still hold their own better against many small ships than Sovs do.

posted on March 15th, 2009, 3:39 am

i like the idea of giving the sovereign a special multi torpedoe attack or rapid phasers or something.  im not a huge fan of magical area of attack spells which is essentially what the sovereign and some other ships have.  i would bump up the offense slightly by 2 or three just so that it actually is a bit more powerful than the defiant.  i played a game with no special attacks whatsoever and it was actually alot of fun....seemed more like a battle you would see on tv and such.

posted on March 15th, 2009, 8:17 am

NeghVars still hold their own better against many small ships than Sovs do.

Really? Are you certain about that? Slow short range ship with beams that are useless.
Compare that to Slow medium range ship with phasers that are quite strong. You see the problem with small ships is that torps only hit them 60% of the time, thus basically all but rendering the Negh'Var toothless. Add that to the quite big reload time for those torps and Im willing to bet you that a regular Sovie would fare better vs destroyers.
If you take the special weapons into considoration as well, khmmm then the Negh'Var just isnt comparable IMO.

posted on March 15th, 2009, 9:03 am

Really? Are you certain about that? Slow short range ship with beams that are useless.

Unfortunatelly i agree. A short ranged battleship is a joke... very unfortunate for the Negh'Var.

posted on March 15th, 2009, 3:49 pm

The Negh'Var is useful for getting rid of Serkas Class ships. It's Special will kill a Serkas in 1 hit.

posted on March 15th, 2009, 10:06 pm

Really? Are you certain about that? Slow short range ship with beams that are useless.
Compare that to Slow medium range ship with phasers that are quite strong. You see the problem with small ships is that torps only hit them 60% of the time, thus basically all but rendering the Negh'Var toothless. Add that to the quite big reload time for those torps and Im willing to bet you that a regular Sovie would fare better vs destroyers.
If you take the special weapons into considoration as well, khmmm then the Negh'Var just isnt comparable IMO.

16 Sovereigns vs a small dominion fleet composed mostly of cruiser class vessels. - enemy destroyed, 5 ships lost.

16 NeghVars vs a similar fleet - enemy destroyed - 2 ships lost.

While Sovs weapons might be better against such targets, it cannot substain sufficient beating to use this advantage. Or to put it simple, it dies to fast to make the difference.

posted on March 15th, 2009, 10:15 pm

i question your test method

posted on March 15th, 2009, 10:56 pm

The Negh'Var is useful for getting rid of Serkas Class ships. It's Special will kill a Serkas in 1 hit.

Unless it misses, which makes it useless for the next 10 (I think) seconds Honestly Id just send destroyers to bring serkas down, they are way faster and I really dont like when those torps miss and my ship gets damaged for no apparent reason.

16 Sovereigns vs a small dominion fleet composed mostly of cruiser class vessels. - enemy destroyed, 5 ships lost.

16 NeghVars vs a similar fleet - enemy destroyed - 2 ships lost.

While Sovs weapons might be better against such targets, it cannot substain sufficient beating to use this advantage. Or to put it simple, it dies to fast to make the difference.

First of all, the fleets must be identical and not "similar". Secondly, you must specify if you were using the Martok Negh'Var or the the regular one, since Martok beefs up the Negh'Var a lot
Thirdly, your whole argument that the sovie can not sustain sufficient beating to use its advantages is strange to say the least, since the Negh'Var has lower defence points that the sovie
Another thing that bothers me is that im sure those enemy fleets werent managed properly, since the Negh'Var is only short range and quite slow you must be really stupid to let them come near you if your in a ship that is faster and has longer range.
And lastly in a MP, at least in serious MP games, you will never, ever have a fleet of 16 sovies (at least not in the newer version of FO). I suggest pitting 1 ship vs an x number of ships (destroyers and cruisers) and see which one fares better.

So I still stand by my point: the Sovie is better vs smaller ships.

posted on March 15th, 2009, 11:15 pm

am i the only one here who hates microing ships.  i make the ships and send them to a general area i hate having to keep pulling a ship away so that it doesnt get hit.  to bad the AI isnt smart enough to figure it out like in bridge commander where you could tell the ship to attack from a distance.

posted on March 16th, 2009, 12:02 am

I prefer to not micro, personally.  Fortunately, in the right configs, Borg are lovely for that.  Just send a couple cubes to the right location, and continue focusing on building more cubes.  Other races are rather more micro-dependant, even if you give the ships full weapon and movement autonomy.

posted on March 16th, 2009, 12:43 am

Unless it misses, which makes it useless for the next 10 (I think) seconds Honestly Id just send destroyers to bring serkas down, they are way faster and I really dont like when those torps miss and my ship gets damaged for no apparent reason.

The Overload has never missed for me, it's accuracy is the same as a typical Torpedo. Besides, it was the only one around when the Serkas was bombarding my Turret.

posted on March 18th, 2009, 6:40 am

Then consider yourself lucky lol, I misses a shitload of times for me. Unless they changed it so it always hits ofc.
As I remember, attacking destroyers with Neghs was a one way street to retreating/being destroyed (depends on other stuff too ofc) But when that thing misses its target the Negh is almost useless for quite some time.