Ship discussion

posted on December 8th, 2010, 12:54 am

Picard replied to Q in the start of TNG that they were explorers when confronted with the massive armament.

Since the Sovereign Class is the successor or the Galaxy Class this means they're both explorers.

In the DS9 episode where the Defiant was introduced Major Kira commented that she thought the Federation didn't believe in warships to which Sisko answered the Defiant was the only one of its kind.

A battleship is a ship designed specifically for combat while the Galaxy and Sovereign are designed for exploration and the possibility to defend themselves when needed.

So the Sovereign is a battleship exploration cruiser.

OOC: I can't believe I'm this bored to even discuss this 

posted on December 8th, 2010, 1:55 am

I'm not sure if the chronology fits there. The galaxy might have had intentions of exploration... but it was still well armed. Matched the battleships of most other races, except Romulans Big D perhaps.

Defiant was designed specifically for war, ie Dominion, or borg? And yes... it probably was the only one of its kind. But the federation would still have had ships designed for combat.

And as for sovereign... it depends when they put it into construction. It could still have been a battleship. Doesn't really matter that it was replacing the galaxy. It was made to stand up against the borg wasn't it? I'd still think of it as having battleship purposes.


And in a sense... all federation ships by default are scientific or exploratory. But some get add ons and are equipped with a few more teeth than others. This can't just make them all science ships with guns.

posted on December 8th, 2010, 10:15 am

Picard replied to Q in the start of TNG that they were explorers when confronted with the massive armament.

Since the Sovereign Class is the successor or the Galaxy Class this means they're both explorers.

In the DS9 episode where the Defiant was introduced Major Kira commented that she thought the Federation didn't believe in warships to which Sisko answered the Defiant was the only one of its kind.

A battleship is a ship designed specifically for combat while the Galaxy and Sovereign are designed for exploration and the possibility to defend themselves when needed.

So the Sovereign is a battleship exploration cruiser.

Battleships aren't ships designed for war, they're the most heavily armed and armored of their era regardless of the intended function. Warship is the term for a vessel designed mainly for war. The Galaxy was the most powerful of its era until the Defiant and Sovereign Class, except the gap hasn't pushed the relative power of the Galaxy down far enough to drop it's type to cruiser. The Sovereign is still new in canon and the most powerful in the fleet.

OOC: I can't believe I'm this bored to even discuss this 

You'll get used to it...

posted on December 8th, 2010, 2:56 pm

OOC: I can't believe I'm this bored to even discuss this 

on this forum we argue about everything. yet funnily enough flame wars are not as common. eventually most arguments just end with agree to disagree and no flame war. we're kinda like that inversion nebula in VOY: Alter Ego that boils up then doesnt explode each time.

posted on December 20th, 2010, 12:11 am

I'm not sure if the chronology fits there. The galaxy might have had intentions of exploration... but it was still well armed. Matched the battleships of most other races, except Romulans Big D perhaps.

Defiant was designed specifically for war, ie Dominion, or borg? And yes... it probably was the only one of its kind. But the federation would still have had ships designed for combat.

And as for sovereign... it depends when they put it into construction. It could still have been a battleship. Doesn't really matter that it was replacing the galaxy. It was made to stand up against the borg wasn't it? I'd still think of it as having battleship purposes.


And in a sense... all federation ships by default are scientific or exploratory. But some get add ons and are equipped with a few more teeth than others. This can't just make them all science ships with guns.

The Defiant was a basicly an heavy destroyer, the one of a kind thing was because the project was canceled (IE: Sisko worked on the project, built the prototype, then starfleet mothballed the idea until the dominion came out.). The Defiant was meant to be spammed, if it had been from the time sisko was in on the project the Dominion war would have been much shorter. As good as the one Defiant was, if there had been wings of them built before teh war, it would have ended much sooner.

As for the classification of the Gal/Sov They're basicly heavy exploration crusiers, which essently means they're dreadnoughts (which puts them a little lower than a battleship) but they dont get either classification as they are not built for pure combat (tho the sov comes closer to it as it's built for period of rising tensions.)

Battleships aren't ships designed for war, they're the most heavily armed and armored of their era regardless of the intended function. Warship is the term for a vessel designed mainly for war. The Galaxy was the most powerful of its era until the Defiant and Sovereign Class, except the gap hasn't pushed the relative power of the Galaxy down far enough to drop it's type to cruiser. The Sovereign is still new in canon and the most powerful in the fleet.
You'll get used to it...

Then by that standard, todays guided missle frigates are the battleships :p .

And Myles, were just mature(ish).

execpt for the people that think Enterprise or reboot trek were great examples of trek, they're easily led children 

posted on December 21st, 2010, 10:49 pm

As for the classification of the Gal/Sov They're basicly heavy exploration crusiers, which essently means they're dreadnoughts (which puts them a little lower than a battleship) but they dont get either classification as they are not built for pure combat (tho the sov comes closer to it as it's built for period of rising tensions.)

I have to contradict here. The Galaxy is a deep space explorer, seriously underpowered comparing to her size. They are only capable in battles because of their shields are strong, but their weaponry is very limited. One photon torpedo launcher to front and one to the aft? Even a Miranda has better armament than that! Of course, during the Dominion War, the Venture Refit was significantly reinforced with the quantum torpedoes and additional phaser banks, but still, the Galaxy Class was weak to her size. definitely not a dreadnought...
The Sovereign however is brutally overpowered for her role. The Sovies were designed to replace the Galaxies, but because of the increasing Borg threat and the Dom War, they got heavy armament with 16(!) quantum torpedo launchers and multi-projector shields. But still, the Sovy is not a dreadnought because of the relatives onboard, and because of her original designation: to replace the Galaxy Class. It's a Long-range exploration cruiser. Overpowered for that role, but not a dreadnought either.

A Negh'Var is a dreadnought, and maybe a D'deridex, but the Federation lacks real dreadnoughts - unless if we accept the Excalibur Class as a canon ship...

posted on December 21st, 2010, 10:54 pm

Not sure where people are getting the impression that a D'deridex is more powerful than  Galaxy class... it's not. I cannot tell you exactly where this was mentioned but they are on par. If anything the Galaxy has more firepower but maybe less in terms of shielding power.

posted on December 21st, 2010, 11:04 pm

Venture varients have no Quantums, and the original was the strongest ship prior to Defiant/Sovereigns. 1 launcher each side is irrelevent; the Miranda fires 1 per tube, the Galaxy fires 5 per tube (at least). It also had the heaviest phasers until newer ships came out. Weaker than it could have been, but the thing's battleship level in its prime despite that and Starfleets hate of the term.

Sovereigns have 1 Quantum launcher and around 8-10 Photons, and those shields have no canon backing. There is also nothing to imply civilians live on it. 'Exploration cruiser' is not canon and neither is the thing about replacing the Galaxy, battleship is at least supported by the movies showing it as more heavily armed than anything else.

Who knows what a D'deridex is, Warbird doesn't imply what type it is. The Romulans refusal to screw with a Galaxy unless they have at least 2 of them and the Romulan preferance for intimidation over action implies its power was exaggerated, with the Warbird at a minor disadvantage.

posted on December 21st, 2010, 11:06 pm

Yes, the only time the D'deridex really messed with the Galaxy was in Tin Man, where one nailed the Galaxy to the perch in a shot or so 

posted on December 21st, 2010, 11:06 pm

Not sure where people are getting the impression that a D'deridex is more powerful than  Galaxy class... it's not. I cannot tell you exactly where this was mentioned but they are on par. If anything the Galaxy has more firepower but maybe less in terms of shielding power.

it wasnt mentioned in canon at all. we only have conjecture. the only canon comparisons we have between galaxy and big d are size and speed.

there is the tenuous evidence that 2 big D could destroy the ent d in one volley.

i am of the opinion that the big d is the superior combat ship due to the fact that it is bigger than the galaxy and is designed for combat by a race who dedicate themselves to war and conquest, rather than exploration.

posted on December 21st, 2010, 11:11 pm

The Enterprise got owned by a couple of "surplus Klingons ships" (Rascals).  Granted, Riker was in command, but let's not mix apples and oranges here.

I have a feeling that the Big D would fair slightly better if placed in the same situation.

posted on December 21st, 2010, 11:12 pm

well those second hand bops beat the ent because the crew were thick as s**t

oh and they needed some plot magic.

posted on December 21st, 2010, 11:15 pm

Though, to be fair to Riker ( did I just type that?), they didn't really have reason to think they would attack them. Klingons were supposed to be their friends.

posted on December 21st, 2010, 11:16 pm

I don't really think that the big Ds are that good, I mean they seemed the equal to the ent D not any better in the shows

posted on December 21st, 2010, 11:23 pm

I can't quote anything... but I am fairly confident that Romulan D'Deridex could take out a galaxy.

First off, D'Deridex can cloak, and it isn't like when it decloaks it will be for lack of firepower. I'm sure it could do some damage. Romulans would never fight in a manner where they don't get a clear advantage. This is just smart. So arguing about whether they could beat the DD without her cloak.. don't really see the point in that. With the ability to cloak and decloak as desired, DD should be able to do it. You always get the sense that romulans have some pretty tough ships to. But I will grant that clearly Enterprise can out run DD. I'm sure that was shown in Tin Man. 

As for them using two DDs against the galaxy that one time, and I believe there was also a time when the galaxy found herself against three, this by no means suggests that the Romulans need to out number the galaxy. It was context. They didn't want a fight, so they just showed the galaxy that surrender was forced. If they wanted a fight, three decloaking DDs would wipe galaxy out.

And even if we go with what was said earlier and they are on par, give it to the DD and her cloak.