Battle of Veridian III (split off topic discussion)

posted on July 24th, 2010, 5:37 pm

i think you will find that the jemhadar used phased polaron beams, not anti proton beams

i think occasionaly they were said to have disruptors, but that was probably a writing error.

and you are right that rotating frequencies failed, the odyssey tried all the frequencies, all failed

it wasnt until sisko stole a bug that starfleet figured out a way to protect against these weapons.

You are correct, I was remembering the anti-proton beam they used for detecting cloaked ships. But yes the polaron beam was different then anything they ever encountered and shields were ineffective till they could analyze dominion technology, unlike klingon disruptors which starfleet was already familliar with.

posted on July 24th, 2010, 5:41 pm

Missing the point, which was that messing with the shields inbattle doesn't always work (which I already said). You're taking this off-topic.

posted on July 24th, 2010, 5:49 pm

I dont think this is off topic, it is relevant to the battle. The Duras sisters method of getting through the Enterprise shields was matching the frequency, thus rotating to a different frequency should have taken away that advantage, period. You used the Odyssey as an example as to why that wouldnt necessarily work, but that was a totally different circomstance. In the Enterprises case rotating frequency would have stopped the Duras sisters unless LaForge was CONSTANTLY stareing at the screen with the shield frequency. The writers just needed an excuse to blow up the Enterprise thats what it came down to.

posted on July 24th, 2010, 5:52 pm

i'm happy with this topic being used for any discussion, it was an offtopic split from another thread. so feel free to use it for anything you want

in general if i make a topic i dont mind it going off topic for debate, as long as u read the original idea lol.

[Tyler]

posted on July 24th, 2010, 5:57 pm

Last edited by Tyler on July 24th, 2010, 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I dont think this is off topic, it is relevant to the battle. The Duras sisters method of getting through the Enterprise shields was matching the frequency, thus rotating to a different frequency should have taken away that advantage, period. You used the Odyssey as an example as to why that wouldnt necessarily work, but that was a totally different circomstance. In the Enterprises case rotating frequency would have stopped the Duras sisters unless LaForge was CONSTANTLY stareing at the screen with the shield frequency. The writers just needed an excuse to blow up the Enterprise thats what it came down to.

It was off-topic because it started as 'shield remodulation doesn't always work' but eventually became a weapon comparison. Not the same thing. Doesn't matter now, since 'off-topic' isn't a concern here.

The Oddysey battle is valid because I never said 'messing with shields doesn't work under X circumstances', I said 'messing with shields doesn't always work' without mentioning any particular circumstances. I used Oddysey as a generic example of remodulation failing (a fancy way of saying 'not doing what the crew expected') to help.

posted on July 24th, 2010, 6:06 pm

Yeah but your comparing a battle where the federation is fighting against a new weapon that penetrates the shields reguardless, vs a battle where they are fighting against known weapons that their shields are effective against. In the Odysseys situation rotationg frequency didnt work, but that was because they penetrated federation shields through some other means then finding its frequency. With the Veridian III battle the klingon weapons were effective ONLY because they had the frequency. thus changing frequency takes away that vulnerability.

And if you are ONLY trying to say adjusting shields doesnt always work, fair enough, but I am just saying why it WOULD have worked in the Enterprises situation based on the method used to penetrate the shields.

posted on July 24th, 2010, 6:07 pm

And if you are ONLY trying to say adjusting shields doesnt always work, fair enough, but I am just saying why it WOULD have worked in the Enterprises situation based on the method used to penetrate the shields.

they probably tried it, but then geordi looked at the panel again and they got the new frequency lol.

posted on July 24th, 2010, 6:14 pm

they probably tried it, but then geordi looked at the panel again and they got the new frequency lol.

Possible, however based on what was going on I dont think Geordi would have had alot of time to stare at that screen, he had his hands full with damage control. Either way if they had just kept randomy rotating it should have helped.

posted on July 24th, 2010, 6:15 pm

Yeah but your comparing a battle where the federation is fighting against a new weapon that penetrates the shields reguardless, vs a battle where they are fighting against known weapons that their shields are effective against. In the Odysseys situation rotationg frequency didnt work, but that was because they penetrated federation shields through some other means then finding its frequency. With the Veridian III battle the klingon weapons were effective ONLY because they had the frequency. thus changing frequency takes away that vulnerability.

And if you are ONLY trying to say adjusting shields doesnt always work, fair enough, but I am just saying why it WOULD have worked in the Enterprises situation based on the method used to penetrate the shields.

I'm mainly comparing different battles because that unpredictability and circumstancial 'change of rules' is one of the most important things about space travel, and what works one time won't work everywhere. That's one thing I never forget; you never know how they're getting though or if the normal method will work.

It might have worked for Enterprise, but Voyager showed how effective an inside view can be at keeping the unbalance in play. Remodulation didn't help there either, dispite circumstances being identical to the ones in Generations.

posted on July 24th, 2010, 6:21 pm

as tyler said, in voyager tuvok changed it every few seconds.

the doctor managed to keep track from sickbay.

geordi wouldnt be staring at the same screen, he would move from screen to screen checking and pushing buttons. but if worf changed them repeatedly (which i doubt as worf isnt too smart, his best idea would be to ram the bop with the ent) all the cleavage sisters would need is for geordi to look at the screen long enough for 1 frame of video to show it. which is likely. he wouldnt even need to purposefully look at the console, just in that direction and the visor would capture the frequency.

also in previous eps geordi's visor looked very weird compared to normal human vision, now on the bop it just looked like a giant webcam attached to his head.

then in the next film his implants look weird again.

posted on July 24th, 2010, 6:24 pm

I'm mainly comparing different battles because that unpredictability and circumstancial 'change of rules' is one of the most important things about space travel, and what works one time won't work everywhere. That's one thing I never forget; you never know how they're getting though or if the normal method will work.

It might have worked for Enterprise, but Voyager showed how effective an inside view can be at keeping the unbalance in play. Remodulation didn't help there either, dispite circumstances being identical to the ones in Generations.

Not quite a fair comparison either and heres why. The Equinox doctor was PURPOSLY sending the changing frequency to the Equinox crew, where as LaForge had unknowingly given the Duras sisters the frequency. Unless he sat and did nothing but stare at the shield frequency screen, which he didnt because you can see him moving around barking orders, they got a one time deal.

Its very different when you have a willing informant constantly streaming you info vs getting it from someone who you unknowingly bugged. LaForge didnt sit there and constantly keep them updated as the Equinox doctor did.

posted on July 24th, 2010, 6:26 pm

geordi didnt sit there staring at the screen, but the console on which the frequency was shown was in the middle of the room i believe. so every time he pointed his head in that general direction the visor would see the frequency.

posted on July 24th, 2010, 6:26 pm

Battle 1: 2 ships in battle, 1 with codes for the other and getting updates.
Battle 2: 2 ships in battle, 1 with codes for the other and getting updates.

Whether they give them the codes by choice or not doesn't change the fact that they are still giving them the codes.

[Equinox1701e]

posted on July 24th, 2010, 6:32 pm

Last edited by Equinox1701e on July 24th, 2010, 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Battle 1: 2 ships in battle, 1 with codes for the other and getting updates.
Battle 2: 2 ships in battle, 1 with codes for the other and getting updates.

Whether they give them the codes by choice or not doesn't change the fact that they are still giving them the codes.

The Duras sisters wernt getting constant updates, lets say they rotated frequency every few seconds, even if LaForge looked several times at the new frequecy the Duras sisters would have to enhance the image to see the new frequency then adjust weapons to match, by the time they do that there should be a new frequecny, unless ALL he did was stare at the frequecny (which is highly unlikely)

[Tyler]

posted on July 24th, 2010, 6:35 pm

Last edited by Tyler on July 24th, 2010, 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

As Myles said, he'd only need a momentary glance in that are or a brief visual scan of the are and the cleavage sisters (that's their offical FO name now or just a nickname? Either way, I need to use it more often) could pause, rewind and whatever else they'd need to do. Plus, we didn't see every second of the battle from Engineering's point of view so we don't know how often the panel was in view.