Sovereign Class - Durability Issues

posted on April 3rd, 2009, 2:16 am

ares, i support you all the way, but hey dominious, im not saying this in any bad way, but can you support YOUR claims?

if feds are so good, why dont you give us a list of points that make feds such a good race, and how there late game is good, paticularly in area of the
sovy

personally, in a long game, feds just come up short, you cant win with stong midsips, without a punch at the end,

you need a strong base, for a spear, but in order to pierce your foe, you need a sharp tip

in my opinion, the fed dont have a sharp tip, hell id pay 800 di, to have a fed vessle, with 47 attack, even 900 di,

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on April 3rd, 2009, 3:31 am

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on April 3rd, 2009, 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Think back Ray, think waaaay back* (two days). I gave plenty of reasons in my earlier threads... but I will summarize again. If you'd like to play a match though, you are always welcome. You can even observe or play with me against someone else if you'd like. Of course, none of the points I'm bringing up below have merit when not placed in context with other races--but I'll try to show you very very briefly why Federation is powerful anyway:

Race specifics: research for non-support ships can be done in the shipyard very quickly (compare to other races where not the case). This means that you can build main ships, do parallel research for support, and then build support very quickly. Also, you do research to get higher ships, which is sooo much better than building a research facility which can be destroyed and which occupies your construction ships. Turrets are customizable and very powerful; you can keep the stations halfbuilt at various mining nodes, and then make them into a usable defense in a rush when attacked at a specific one (saving resources). Personally, I think the Federation has the best support ships in the game.

I'm only going to mention a few ships to save time (the most heavily used ones)
First Shipyard:
Sabre: Long range, fastest destroyer, has good base shielding, and very cheap. Avoids torpedoes like microbes being discovered on Mars.
Norway: superb secondary ability (plasma overload or something like that) --can take out dozens of destroyers and can fire two specials in close succession.
Canaveral: blackout lasts for 25 seconds and decreases firepower by 75% and movement(?) of a very very large radius. Microed, this murders obviously.
Akira: really good special, very decent attack and defense, armed with phaser and torp so does a lot of damage to both hull and shields.

Second Shipyard
Remore: can’t remember all the specifics as I R tired… and baboon. I know it has one that boosts your firepower I think (or defense) of your FLEET, and it takes down shields of one vessel.
Excelsior II: anti capital ship missile is rather powerful… needless to say. A very durable and high powered ship for its cost.
If I’ve gotten this far, I’ve already won by this time… but sometimes I spare my enemy and…

Defiant: decent attack and defense, plus critical shot which does wonders against big juicy targets. Also has pulses which does a lot of damage to small ships. (bad that it has low crew… against assimilation this is dangerous)
Sovereign: engine overload is soooo irritating against destroyers. Especially Klingon and Romulan ones which must face forward to attack. It also does wonders against the Borg… because you can retreat out of range and blast them from afar.

Normal warp in ships: Free ships. What more can I say. While all the other races have SCubes or littler destroyers, you can break out ships with more than 30 offense and the like defense…
Experimental: Descent class. Good for later game engagements as it provides that second life to all ships in a close radius. 75 defense, 35 offense. That is going to last a looooong time. It even is a good meatshield early game, and has a sizeable offense to boot (especially since again, you can get it when everyone else has destroyers).

So the only ships I really don’t use are…. Right, the Monsoon and Intrepid… The Monsoon I’ve found only comes in handy very occasionally… and usually I go straight for the Akira and don’t touch the Intrepid. If you would hear me talk about the Romulans, you’d know that the amount of ships I’m using as Federation is enormous (Romulans: Rhienn, Generix, Norexan. Done.). I really have to figure out some better strategy with the Romulans.

But seriously, I’ve said this before, the Federation does not rely on a SINGLE ship to be powerful, it relies on its fleet working together. Hence the incredible support powers dedicated to either boosting your attack, your defense, or weakening the enemy’s. If you want that strategy of very powerful single warships, there are two other races that do something akin to that.

posted on April 3rd, 2009, 5:10 am

Don't forget that the feds buildings are cheap, which saves resources to let you build more ships, or do your research earlier, or build more buildings.

Hell, compare the price of their mining station with the Klingon mining station, and consider how much of a savings that adds up to, and then convert it into turrets or more ships.

Also, laugh hideously at new ships trying to fight a rank 4 or 5 Sovy.  That thing is a shield pig with a good hull, and it's officer ability reduces damage from non-officer ships.  Once she's got the Akira ability or something else to give her a non-officer rank endurance boost, she really will be a flagship worthy of the name.

But those cheap buildings really are the glory point.  So, so, so lovely.

posted on April 3rd, 2009, 5:34 am

hmm......... well, im starting to think there not as bad as i had once thought, and when sovy gets that special, it will be better, HOWEVER, i belive 36 is just to low of an offense, and it should be at least, 38-40 offense, that, would solve pretty much any problems the sovy will have, increase the di cost a bit, but seriously, the fed needs that much at least, there offense, is not going to be that low, on her flagship

posted on April 3rd, 2009, 6:47 am

My awesome post that I was in the process of writing was erased somehow!    You'll have to make due with the abridged version.

Some other cool things about the Federation:

• They have repair ships that keep your ships alive.  The three of them together repair so fast that there's almost no excuse for losing a ship.
• Vector Calculation (Remore ability) increases the attack rate of any vessel by 40%!  Slap that on some Steamrunners or Sovereigns and watch them go to town.

• Warp in ships that achieve officer rank no longer count towards the warp in limit.  You could potentially have unlimited free ships warping in every 250 seconds.  Excesiors are extremely good at leveling up because they are basically sabres with cruiser stats.  You could have 8 or 9 of them at officer rank at the end of the game, plus all the other ships you warped in.  Rock on!
• Awesome Admiral Ben Mayson :2guns: Decreases construction time by 25%  That's Huge!

• He is the only other avatar to have turrets with an artillary range, and he can build more than three.

I hear what you're saying, Ray.  You really love the Federation (you've told us more than once )  You want to see Sovereigns warp in First Contact style like some badass on a mission to save the entire universe.  To see them go up against some insurmountable enemy, take whopping amounts of damage, but come out on top with huge battle scars and "I Need a Hero" playing in the background. 

Trust me, we all would love to see that.  I really enjoy playing the Federation and I like having Sovereigns around.  That's why my first post was about them.  But unfortunately, upping the Sovereign's offense value would mean they wouldn't have to rely on any other vessel.  With a super powerful offense and defense, why build anything else?  The Federation has the weakest offense because it has all these other great things that make them powerful.  And that's why the Sovereign has to be where it is.  Just remember that the Team will be doing a redo for the Federation, and that they are keeping the Sovereign in mind.  I'm sure they'll wow us all when they're finished.

posted on April 3rd, 2009, 7:10 am

ya, i hear you but really, that is what the sovy is supposed to be, the feds knight in shining armor, and right now, i mean, seriously 38-40 would fix it, but 36, really? you guys realize, that the excelsiors defiant and sov have almost the exact same offense? thats what im talking about

i also liek the fact that sombody can disagree with me, and point out flaws they see in what i have to say, in a nice manner, so thanks mal

posted on April 3rd, 2009, 9:16 am

No problem Ray.   You've got a lot of enthusiasm, which is great.  Although some of your posts could use a few less commas.  Mr. Period is not happy. >:(  One thing I always do before I post is preview what I write, and slowly read it as though I'm looking at it for the first time, to see if it makes sense.  Remember that half of getting your idea across is presentation.  (I know I sound like an English teacher.  The thought of becoming one has crossed my mind. )

But let's take a look at those vessels.  The Defiant has the same offensive value as the Sovereign, but it's no where near as durable.  Take them and duel them 1vs1.  Even if the Defiant uses Critical Shot, it's clear the Sovereign is the winner by a mile.  The only thing a Defiant can do is run away.

While it's true Ben Mayson :2guns: is a descendant of Chuck Norris, that all his ships are awesome, and that Risner is his [censored], remember that you can't fairly compare ships buffed by avatars.  You have to take their base attributes when comparing them.  If I remember right, the Mk2's base offensive value is 29.  Like Dominus said, by the time you make these, you've probably won the game.

Sovereigns are more important to Risner's game, in my opinion.  That's why her chassis costs are decreased, to allow you to reach level three quicker.  The increased system value allows the Sovereign to have more energy for specials so that they may be used more often.

Each of those vessels we have discussed has their role.  Ben Mayson's :2guns: Mk2 does compete with the Sov, but only because it's faster and has a longer range.  It's not quite the powerhouse with Risner like the Sov is.  And sure, the Defiant gets beaten in a 1v1 against the Sov, but it's a fast warship that can get to the battle faster.  There's all kinds of good things to say about it, but I'm getting tired, so I'll leave it at that.  Where the Sov itself shines is in using it's high defensive value to take the punishment, so the other vessels don't have to.  Think of it as the big brother that's protecting everyone else. 

It still has the highest offensive value of all the Federation's ships (don't mention the phalanx ) and fufills it's role as a frontline vessel pretty well.  It can take the hits, while still dishing out decent damage. 

posted on April 3rd, 2009, 11:13 am

It all depends on how you use them.

posted on April 3rd, 2009, 1:48 pm

Mal, you really are one of the best posters on here, you're polite and well-mannered in every way. And your arguments are very convincing.

Since having a FC style sovereign would make it almost the only ship you build, why not give it the akira special, - which I think is planned anyway - up the offense a little bit, balanced by increased cost, and then put a limit on them?

Like maybe a soft-cap shared with phalanxes for Risner, and a smaller cap for Mayson. That would also flesh out the differences between the avatars without changing more ship stats.
While this idea is pretty out there, I hope it would satisfy Ray. And because everyone knows Sovereigns are not common ships; in all canon ships that are in-game, the only ship we ever see one of is the Sovereign and the Mission Scout Ship (Venture for you guys ). Even the Defiant-class, - which seems a pretty rare ship too - we have seen at least three to five different ships on screen.

[Anonymous]

posted on April 3rd, 2009, 7:49 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on April 3rd, 2009, 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

but in all fairness i do agree with Ray that a quantum torp packing fed ship that starts at 38 needs to have a little increase in firepower once it reaches a rank - at least double bars, more than what it currently gets.
ive never played as feds (cos i just hate the idea of being human when i could be rom or borg or kling or dom) and AI sovs are usually destroyed before they get rank, so im curious if the Sov ranked ships have a special ability that enhances the effect of their quantums once they reach a gold bar level - kinda like what happens to the Luspet field of fire or the Neghs?

posted on April 3rd, 2009, 8:54 pm

They get an ability called "Flagship" that reduces damage from vessels below officer rank by 11% 1 gold, 22% 2 gold.

posted on April 3rd, 2009, 9:17 pm

Actually 16%/32% but close enough.

And serpicus, upping the offense is part of what I was suggesting.

posted on April 4th, 2009, 1:08 am

hmm, well mal as you talked about the defiant vs sov then id like to here your thoughts about nevargh vs soverign.

you may of seen me post my results from testing this (i have wintnesses) (go test your self if you have questions about it).

each time same results, the nervargh beats a sovy without taking any hull damge, with an without the special weapon(with the speciaal weapon it even had more sheild) but it never took hull damage, and had a little bit of sheilds left.

nevargh costs alot less then the sovy, and is just a little above excelsior, and right around defiant ( pretty sure it costs less) with the way it can dispatch a sovy so easily in a relativly short manner, this leads me to wonder, as i have not tested it yet, how easily  a defiant will fall, or excleior, and it can definalty kill a phalanx.

posted on April 4th, 2009, 1:12 am

Which Avatar are you using?

[tom]

posted on April 4th, 2009, 1:12 pm

Last edited by tom on April 4th, 2009, 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i've tested it a minute ago. 5 risner's sovs vs 5 martok's negh'vars (both without specials). 1 of my sovs losts shilds and thats it. 5-0 for the sovs. "it's the micromanagement, stupid". here u can learn what i'm talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromanagement_(computer_gaming)

EDIT: i just did 5 sovs vs 20 negh'vars. 20-1 for the sovs and it's because i'm not a good player. it should be 20-0. this means that the negh'var is too weak and needs a boost. we need a new thread with 20 pages about this asap. (sorry for the sarcasm, but it fits here so well  )