Breen Cruiser may be underpowered.
posted on August 20th, 2010, 6:42 pm
Last edited by Boggz on August 20th, 2010, 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ok, I'm trying to read your point by point responses and I can already tell that you just need to practice more.
I was suggesting that you DO INDEED use Breen against Cubes. Somehow you misunderstood me.
Bottom line: If it's a large sized, medium range battleship, USE BREEN CRUISERS
SSEC as nothing to do with how Nanites affect them. Nanites disables subs for a few seconds. Nanites are equally as bad against nearly all ships. You say SSEC ships are not good for fighting Cubes. That's just wrong. Their passive is perfectly suited against Cubes. Sorry but that's just wrong
.
It's hard, yes. You have to ram them from the other side. You don't ram them in the direction they are trying to escape. No one said everything was going to be easy.
Again, no offense, but the logic here makes me think that you just need to practice more. S-2's are very fast and you only need 1 to use it's special on the Breen. I don't even know where to begin to pick this apart. Practice more and you'll find that it works just fine.
Please think in bigger terms ... 1 v 1 fights rarely happen, but Breen cruisers will slice through Galaxy's like butter. If you've got 6 Breen cruisers in your mixed fleet, have them target the battleships first and you'll see the things disappear.
Negh'vars won't be cloaking in normal games. That advantage is nullified. Luspets may do so, but they don't even get the bonus of TWA. Luspets are FAR too expensive to be wasting trying to kill a Breen cruiser or two in fleet combat. They will be attacking better things.
As for firing arcs ... they can't "fly out of it" as Arash apparently says. If you right click on a ship for an attack, it cannot escape your firing arc. Try it.
Please just try it. Neghvars are not early game ships and are produced from a 3rd tier yard. Breen Cruisers are made from a yard that is 1st level and most players usually have 2. Neghvars are great and will do very well against Breen, but they do most of their damage in torpedoes and will still miss 20% of the time. Practicality-wise they wil be targeted first by Breen and squashed.
So if certain things don't work - TRY ANOTHER USE. Oh my god ... Breen can't raid miners? Use them defensively. Have your bugs and S-2's raid mining while some Breen sit at your vulnerable exp cloaked. When those nasty 130 speed Eresis decloak blast the shit out of them! Eresis are cripplingly expensive and not terribly strong (32-29 stats) while taking like 60-80% extra damage from Breen.
Statements like what you just made are showing me that you are just not sure how to use your units properly. It bothers me when people who clearly have not tried to learn more begin making threads about how certain units MUST need a change. Not all units are made for mining raiding. We've already established that Breen are anti-battleships, so why compain that they're not good for raiding mining? Why? I don't get it.
#1: YOU guys aren't "proving" anything either. You make assertions about something's strength without using it for any practical purposes. I don't need to show you "proof" because you guys are not using these ships for their purposes and are clearly not interested in even ATTEMPTING to do so. I've given you a line by line list of how Breen will take apart all these different ships.
What more can I do? Hold your hand? I am always happy to help newer players and always willing to listen, but I refuse to tolerate people stubbornly insisting that something is broken because they don't know how to use it.
So then I'm not speaking from common sense?
It's funny because you're saying here that I represent the weight and experience and those who disagree are the "common sense".
From my perspective it is YOU GUYS that lack the common sense. Yeah, I get it, Breen are not as useful as they used to be. That's very true. However, Breen used to be WAY to good and could destroy ANYTHING. Now they are just like everything else, only their purpose (anti-battleships) isn't seen as often because most people don't teech up to battleships anymore.
Use some common sense guys ... don't use Bugs against Leahvals, don't use Galaxy's against Luspets, use Defiants against Kvorts, and use Breen Cruisers/Battleships against Medium ranged Large sized Battleships. Boom.
1. You suggest to not use them aginst cubes, istead use those ships that doesnt made for countering
large size medium range battleships. Interesting...
I was suggesting that you DO INDEED use Breen against Cubes. Somehow you misunderstood me.
Bottom line: If it's a large sized, medium range battleship, USE BREEN CRUISERS
2. Yes other races suffer from nanites too, but not nearly as much as ssec ships, they tend to
even loose thier shields from nanites... (and other ssec ships are not for fighting cubes...)
SSEC as nothing to do with how Nanites affect them. Nanites disables subs for a few seconds. Nanites are equally as bad against nearly all ships. You say SSEC ships are not good for fighting Cubes. That's just wrong. Their passive is perfectly suited against Cubes. Sorry but that's just wrong
.3. Sphere dance and bug ramming.. try it, the spheres will loose thier engines for 2 seconds, and
even without it, they will keep to float to escape direction with thier 100 speed.
It's hard, yes. You have to ram them from the other side. You don't ram them in the direction they are trying to escape. No one said everything was going to be easy.
4. And yes you said it too s-2s are much better aginst spheres, you suggest to waste the s-2s
firepower to enhanche breen firing rate, because its clear they wont be able to fire on the spheres,
as they will be far behind supporting the crusers...
Again, no offense, but the logic here makes me think that you just need to practice more. S-2's are very fast and you only need 1 to use it's special on the Breen. I don't even know where to begin to pick this apart. Practice more and you'll find that it works just fine.
1. Im sure one of the cruisers will suffer heavy damage in this theoretical fight,
and highly likely it will loose its engines, or life support, or weapons on the battlefield..
That means you loose one for a free ship...
Please think in bigger terms ... 1 v 1 fights rarely happen, but Breen cruisers will slice through Galaxy's like butter. If you've got 6 Breen cruisers in your mixed fleet, have them target the battleships first and you'll see the things disappear.
1. The speed and cloak will comletely cancel your (Negh'var and Luspet) range advantage, klingon ships will easily
fly out from your firing arc (as Arash has mentioned the problem before me), and yes they have limited too, but with this they can cloak out, and run when damaged.
Negh'vars won't be cloaking in normal games. That advantage is nullified. Luspets may do so, but they don't even get the bonus of TWA. Luspets are FAR too expensive to be wasting trying to kill a Breen cruiser or two in fleet combat. They will be attacking better things.
As for firing arcs ... they can't "fly out of it" as Arash apparently says. If you right click on a ship for an attack, it cannot escape your firing arc
. Try it.2. You suggest, that the breen cruisers, that take extra damage from the neggie,
and are more sensitive to subsystem damage, are the sturdy ones? intresting....
Please just try it. Neghvars are not early game ships and are produced from a 3rd tier yard. Breen Cruisers are made from a yard that is 1st level and most players usually have 2. Neghvars are great and will do very well against Breen, but they do most of their damage in torpedoes and will still miss 20% of the time. Practicality-wise they wil be targeted first by Breen and squashed.
Speed is irrevelant? You cant be serious... they can avoid the fight all day and destroy
your mining and yards, while your cruisers crawl slowly on the battlefield (yes you can
try it too, and go for thier mining but your agression will be pointless, because breens
are very bad aginst mining and stations.), and they dont even need to cloak out to run from
you...
So if certain things don't work - TRY ANOTHER USE. Oh my god ... Breen can't raid miners? Use them defensively. Have your bugs and S-2's raid mining while some Breen sit at your vulnerable exp cloaked. When those nasty 130 speed Eresis decloak blast the shit out of them! Eresis are cripplingly expensive and not terribly strong (32-29 stats) while taking like 60-80% extra damage from Breen.
Statements like what you just made are showing me that you are just not sure how to use your units properly. It bothers me when people who clearly have not tried to learn more begin making threads about how certain units MUST need a change. Not all units are made for mining raiding. We've already established that Breen are anti-battleships, so why compain that they're not good for raiding mining? Why? I don't get it.
We can countinue it forever... I have to agree with Drrrrr, without proving things this is
pointless.
#1: YOU guys aren't "proving" anything either. You make assertions about something's strength without using it for any practical purposes. I don't need to show you "proof" because you guys are not using these ships for their purposes and are clearly not interested in even ATTEMPTING to do so. I've given you a line by line list of how Breen will take apart all these different ships.
What more can I do? Hold your hand? I am always happy to help newer players and always willing to listen, but I refuse to tolerate people stubbornly insisting that something is broken because they don't know how to use it.
Its clear your words have more weight on the forum, and it is ok with your experience, but
im not sure that will be enough aginst the common sense, that they are not useful.
I have some reason behind the words.
So then I'm not speaking from common sense?
It's funny because you're saying here that I represent the weight and experience and those who disagree are the "common sense".
From my perspective it is YOU GUYS that lack the common sense. Yeah, I get it, Breen are not as useful as they used to be. That's very true. However, Breen used to be WAY to good and could destroy ANYTHING. Now they are just like everything else, only their purpose (anti-battleships) isn't seen as often because most people don't teech up to battleships anymore.
Use some common sense guys ... don't use Bugs against Leahvals, don't use Galaxy's against Luspets, use Defiants against Kvorts, and use Breen Cruisers/Battleships against Medium ranged Large sized Battleships. Boom.
posted on August 20th, 2010, 7:28 pm
We haven't had this much excitement since the Galaxy/Sov threads!!!! 
Optec and Detektor balanced the Breen Cruiser because they realized that 360 degree firing arc + speed boost = ultimate kiting vessel. They saw the problems the ship has been causing since patch 3.0.7 until now, and I'm sure everyone else will come around as well.
Remember that the first speed upgrade is immediately available once you make the ketracel white facility, and the second upgrade not long after, giving the ship a speed of 110. It can then keep up with spheres and is more nasty all around. 
The current use of the ship is balanced, but there's nothing that says that later on the ship can't have some other use in the Race Redoes. The current Breen Cruiser could very well be a placeholder until the changes come, and I think our time would be better spent thinking up cool new uses for the Breen cruiser instead.
For example, I've already suggested to Optec that the breen cruiser be more of an anti-support unit ship. Don't know if that would be added in, but it would be unique and very cool. It would do more damage to support units, and the torpedoes would also drain special energy from ships (especially from supports), to sort of simulate their ship disabling effect. It makes sense that they adapted their disabling tech to do at least some draining even if the alpha quadrant powers were able to overcome the complete disable, and having enemy ships lose special energy would be pretty neat. Anyway, I think a thread discussing changes for the Redo in the Feature Request section would be more beneficial than all this silly bickering. 
Optec and Detektor balanced the Breen Cruiser because they realized that 360 degree firing arc + speed boost = ultimate kiting vessel. They saw the problems the ship has been causing since patch 3.0.7 until now, and I'm sure everyone else will come around as well.
Remember that the first speed upgrade is immediately available once you make the ketracel white facility, and the second upgrade not long after, giving the ship a speed of 110. It can then keep up with spheres and is more nasty all around. The current use of the ship is balanced, but there's nothing that says that later on the ship can't have some other use in the Race Redoes. The current Breen Cruiser could very well be a placeholder until the changes come, and I think our time would be better spent thinking up cool new uses for the Breen cruiser instead.
For example, I've already suggested to Optec that the breen cruiser be more of an anti-support unit ship. Don't know if that would be added in, but it would be unique and very cool. It would do more damage to support units, and the torpedoes would also drain special energy from ships (especially from supports), to sort of simulate their ship disabling effect. It makes sense that they adapted their disabling tech to do at least some draining even if the alpha quadrant powers were able to overcome the complete disable, and having enemy ships lose special energy would be pretty neat.
Anyway, I think a thread discussing changes for the Redo in the Feature Request section would be more beneficial than all this silly bickering. 
posted on August 20th, 2010, 7:38 pm
Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on August 20th, 2010, 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
posted on August 20th, 2010, 7:40 pm
posted on August 20th, 2010, 7:52 pm
Last edited by Anonymous on August 20th, 2010, 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That is correct, you weren't listening. If the devs balanced it because it was overpowered, then maybe they know something you don't? ;) The engine upgrades made them even more retarded. You didn't need that engine upgrades for them to be overpowered. Neb, I've seen you spam Breen Cruisers against destroyers and then complain (and that was when they only did 20% less damage), so it's hard to have a balancing discussion with you until you try some of the things that have been suggested. I was trying to keep my post short to avoid just this kind of misunderstanding, which seems to happen all too often on these forums.
You flew right past the part where I suggested that a thread be made to create new ideas for the Breen cruiser, which was the main idea of my post.
Edit: Changed thread to post.
If the devs balanced it because it was overpowered, then maybe they know something you don't? ;) The engine upgrades made them even more retarded. You didn't need that engine upgrades for them to be overpowered. Neb, I've seen you spam Breen Cruisers against destroyers and then complain (and that was when they only did 20% less damage), so it's hard to have a balancing discussion with you until you try some of the things that have been suggested. I was trying to keep my post short to avoid just this kind of misunderstanding, which seems to happen all too often on these forums. You flew right past the part where I suggested that a thread be made to create new ideas for the Breen cruiser, which was the main idea of my post.
Edit: Changed thread to post.
posted on August 20th, 2010, 8:03 pm
posted on August 20th, 2010, 8:12 pm
Nebula_Class_Ftw wrote:Spam Breen Cruisers against Destroyers? You say this was back when they only did 20% reduced? Was this the time I tried to raid with them; also, don't they get a bigger reduction than that on small ships?
Yes, it was some time ago. Yes, the damage reduction is now 30% vs small vessels. The damage coefficients vs small vessels and battleships were reversed.
I think that they were nerfed too much, even if they were OP.
Ok.
As far as ideas for the Breen Cruiser, I would've talked about that, but that's not the topic of this thread.
Yes. I know.
That's why I suggested a new thread.Anyway, I think a thread discussing changes for the Redo in the Feature Request section would be more beneficial than all this silly bickering.
posted on August 20th, 2010, 8:55 pm
posted on August 20th, 2010, 9:52 pm
They're not Underpowered . Boom.
Try using them for their purpose and you'll see them shine once more! Upgrade their engines and you'll be terrifying!
Or continue to use them like people did between 3.0.7 and 3.1.2 to your own demise.
Get on the train or stay in Fuckedville :Woot:
. Boom.Try using them for their purpose and you'll see them shine once more! Upgrade their engines and you'll be terrifying!
Or continue to use them like people did between 3.0.7 and 3.1.2 to your own demise.
Get on the train or stay in Fuckedville :Woot:
posted on August 23rd, 2010, 4:14 pm
Last edited by machinor on August 23rd, 2010, 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I can understand some of the problems with Breen Cruisers.
The comparison with Excelsior IIs is quite bad. Excelsior IIs only need a second yard which you probabely won't need for much else most of the time. Breen Cruisers however are built in the first yard. The yard you'll rather use to pump out your regular frontline ships, not the specialists you may need in late game (especially not with the long construction times for prototypes and early-game vessels in general for the Breen avatar).
The real problem is, that puretech is very good in its focus to early game with the reduced construction times. The reason to choose Pruetech avatar is the avatar bonus, i.e. decrease in construction time.
The only reason to go Breen is for Breen ships, not for avatar benefits. The Breen ships are however both focused on fighting late-game units.
In a 1v1 you don't expect to face late-game vessels so you almost always go for the Puretech early-game advantage. That's the reason you see almost no Breen Avatars in 1v1s, except if Dominion wants to use B8 due to the B8-bug, which are definitely a reason to chose Breen avatar in some matchups.
In team games, Breen avatar is a more valid choice since those games very often move to late-game and Breen Cruisers can show their full potential.
The problem in my point of view is that Breen is a late-game focused avatar but with no early boon to even it out. For example Mijural has the Shrike which is a very capable early-game ships that can bring you through the early game until your advantage can kick in. Risner has some defense bonuses on a few early game ships as well. Breen avatar is focused completely on late-game with no real early-game advantage compared to Puretech.
You also have to take into consideration the prototype mechanism with Dominion. It focuses Dominion to watch out on the time (and supply) factor much more closely than other races. Prototypes as Breen avatar are very very expensive (especially the supply cost really hurt) and take a long time so you rather want to very carefully consider which ones you build. Late-game specialists tend to be rather low on the list.
Again: I think the problem is less the Breen Cruisers itself (which is indeed a fine anti-battleship-ship) as more the Breen avatar and his severly early-game disadvantage compared to Puretech. Especially in 1v1, not so much in team games.
My 2 cents...
EDIT: Quick modify to summon away teh textwall evulness.
The comparison with Excelsior IIs is quite bad. Excelsior IIs only need a second yard which you probabely won't need for much else most of the time. Breen Cruisers however are built in the first yard. The yard you'll rather use to pump out your regular frontline ships, not the specialists you may need in late game (especially not with the long construction times for prototypes and early-game vessels in general for the Breen avatar).
The real problem is, that puretech is very good in its focus to early game with the reduced construction times. The reason to choose Pruetech avatar is the avatar bonus, i.e. decrease in construction time.
The only reason to go Breen is for Breen ships, not for avatar benefits. The Breen ships are however both focused on fighting late-game units.
In a 1v1 you don't expect to face late-game vessels so you almost always go for the Puretech early-game advantage. That's the reason you see almost no Breen Avatars in 1v1s, except if Dominion wants to use B8 due to the B8-bug, which are definitely a reason to chose Breen avatar in some matchups.
In team games, Breen avatar is a more valid choice since those games very often move to late-game and Breen Cruisers can show their full potential.
The problem in my point of view is that Breen is a late-game focused avatar but with no early boon to even it out. For example Mijural has the Shrike which is a very capable early-game ships that can bring you through the early game until your advantage can kick in. Risner has some defense bonuses on a few early game ships as well. Breen avatar is focused completely on late-game with no real early-game advantage compared to Puretech.
You also have to take into consideration the prototype mechanism with Dominion. It focuses Dominion to watch out on the time (and supply) factor much more closely than other races. Prototypes as Breen avatar are very very expensive (especially the supply cost really hurt) and take a long time so you rather want to very carefully consider which ones you build. Late-game specialists tend to be rather low on the list.
Again: I think the problem is less the Breen Cruisers itself (which is indeed a fine anti-battleship-ship) as more the Breen avatar and his severly early-game disadvantage compared to Puretech. Especially in 1v1, not so much in team games.
My 2 cents...
EDIT: Quick modify to summon away teh textwall evulness.
posted on August 23rd, 2010, 4:35 pm
Actually Machinor you make a good point about how the Breen avatar is oriented toward late game.
As of this patch they certainly do as the Breen ships now are focused against battleships.
They didn't use to be, but they were just a bit too good.
Good news: I'm quite sure that the "end-game/early-game" avatar distinction will be replaced with something in between. Hopefully the Breen ships will settle into a nice role in between late game and early game.
As of this patch they certainly do as the Breen ships now are focused against battleships.
They didn't use to be, but they were just a bit too good
. Good news: I'm quite sure that the "end-game/early-game" avatar distinction will be replaced with something in between. Hopefully the Breen ships will settle into a nice role in between late game and early game
.posted on August 23rd, 2010, 4:36 pm
posted on August 23rd, 2010, 5:35 pm
LOL! Actually Myles is right. Quite embarassing! 
Still, I believe my point remains since the 50% drop in prototype cost is still quite a help in the early game, while the bonus for the V13 and especially the B5 (LOVE the Puretech B5) provide quite some middle- to late-game punch. That makes Puretech avatar the way better choice at least in 1v1.
Still, I believe my point remains since the 50% drop in prototype cost is still quite a help in the early game, while the bonus for the V13 and especially the B5 (LOVE the Puretech B5) provide quite some middle- to late-game punch. That makes Puretech avatar the way better choice at least in 1v1.
posted on August 23rd, 2010, 5:44 pm
Breen has quite a nice early game as well due to the +2 offense for torp ships
posted on August 23rd, 2010, 5:47 pm
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