Borg Ship Construction

posted on October 12th, 2008, 7:43 am

The Borg were created from Star Trek to show what humanity can become, the Borg started with an advanced species that evolved technologically to a point where they can communicate directly and robotics and the bridge between biology and technology got smaller and smaller.  The only part we don't know is how it happened, was it an angry or mad scientist or was it the whole species or what?  Who knows but we know that the Borg "only" assimilate, they don't reproduce, and they don't "create" new technology.

In the episode of "Dark Frontier" when the queen and seven go to a planet for assimilation they are in a fleet of 2 cubes and their diamond.  When the Borg leave the system they have 3 cubes and the diamond.  The Borg build ships really fast but they require vast amount of resources.

The Borg do not "create" technology or knowledge, that is why in "Q Who" Q says the Borg are the perfect user, they don't create, they consume.  What knowledge they have is from assimilated beings and the whole technology bit, if lets say one individual of a species knows how to fend off against a certain missile or energy weapon the Borg know that knowledge.
But if they only assimilate how are they so powerful?  That question is valid but if you think about it one species has very good weapons, another has great defenses, another has great sensor technology.  The Borg have huge ships because they are in fact not that powerful, they need the huge ships to make sure they win their battles against unknown species because if the Borg lose a battle, they don't just lose a ship, but also the drones on the ship which equals up to knowledge.  And for adaptation the Borg don't really think of how to adapt, they analyze and use what knowledge they have to combat it, if they can't analyze i.e. assimilate or probe it they can't adapt thus the difficulty with species 8472.

The Borg have scouts throughout the galaxy to not find new people to assimilate, they are just scouts to find out all the knowledge they can get and share it with the collective.

Think of the Borg as the internet, lets say each computer represents a Borg ship.  The computer has a set amount of information stored in its hard drive but if needed it can call out for new information of just about anything anyone has every known.  That is why somethings take a while to adapt to while other things not too much.  And the queen represents a server because she communicates with all ships, not drones specifically but ships.  I love the Borg and the philosophy behind them even though how "evil" their quest is.  All the races are trying to gain more power, some use war, some use espionage, some use diplomacy, the Borg use knowledge, the Borg aren't just powerful because of their shiny ships, they are powerful because of knowledge of the enemy, they can find out what defenses the enemy has and have weapons to disable or destroy those defenses.  Only problem with the Borg is if you really made them true to the show they would be far too overpowered or far underpowered.  I know of how to make the Borg very much like in the series and make them fun to play as and against I just don't know if the Armada 2 code is able to handle it, I think so but ehh, who knows.  O, and I would say how and what but that is a huge post that is many many pages full.  Sorry for the giant post again, seem to always make them....

posted on October 12th, 2008, 9:02 am

In the episode of "Dark Frontier" when the queen and seven go to a planet for assimilation they are in a fleet of 2 cubes and their diamond.  When the Borg leave the system they have 3 cubes and the diamond.

I think that's just a fault by the CGI Studio or the Script...

posted on October 12th, 2008, 4:48 pm

Well maybe or maybe not, we have seen the Borg regenerate huge amounts of hull damage in almost no time.  I bet with enough power and drones they can make a cube in a day.  But where would they put the extra 200+ thousand drones they just assimilated?

posted on October 12th, 2008, 4:53 pm

According to the (non-canon) SFC3 Game, each cube has the facilities for assimilating a whole planet. So 2 or 3 could easily store 1 planet worth until they were reassigned (assuming they weren't left on the assimilated planet).

posted on October 12th, 2008, 5:04 pm

Although we've had this discussion before... the borg do have children. Either clones, or reproductives. On several episodes you see "babies" of different species that are in Borg growing tubes, not to mention "immature Borg" (aka, children of different ages) who have yet to be given all the enhancements. Likewise, in Voyager we even see that the Doc's hyper advanced thingy (portable emitter?) when it fuses with a borg device it takes a cell from a crewman and clones him (yet he is Borg). We must remember that "canon" is by no means a complete history, and to argue it is often ridiculous as no author of Startrek is consistent even with him/herself.

On that note we move to technology. I find it ludicrous to believe that the Borg "only" assimilate, as they are even describe themselves with the phrase "we will adapt". What is adaption per se? It culd be the creation of new technology, the assimilation of new technology or simply the reworking of already present technology. Either way, I find it hard to believe that the Borg would have become soooo powerful without having invented their own technology (or at least reverse engineering and improving the weaker technolgy of their conquered enemies). Think about it this way. Lets say they start with warp drive and the ability to assimilate. At first they would only be able to assimilate unwary travelers (i.e. weaker groups). Where would that get them? The only advantage they would have would be that of numbers; but that is hardly sufficient to explain how they so rapidly gained extremely superior tech to the Feds. I am only left with the conclusion that they must have been able to conquer other races only by inventing new tech, subjugating them, and then adapting their tech to service the Borg (in a sense making improvement to it).

I am not quite sure what you mean by "taking a long time to adapt", as many times on the show they instantly adapt (or take one to two hits before they do so)

posted on October 12th, 2008, 8:51 pm

I agree, earlier I was going to attempt to refute your long post, but that would have been my troll side. However, now that there is a discussion...

The Borg have scouts throughout the galaxy to not find new people to assimilate, they are just scouts to find out all the knowledge they can get and share it with the collective.

Negative, a Borg scout ship attacks voyager in 'Dark Frontier' it had the purpose of assimilating Voyager. I believe the borg use many configurations of vessels as a Cube is not necessary for all missions. Spheres can accomplish most missions and for missions with a smaller threat profile scouting ships (such as the 'Interceptor' or 'Scout Cube' or whatever) will suffice.

Think of the Borg as the internet, lets say each computer represents a Borg ship.  The computer has a set amount of information stored in its hard drive but if needed it can call out for new information of just about anything anyone has every known.  That is why somethings take a while to adapt to while other things not too much.

This point is valid except that I would like to state my opinion on the Borg such that the borg represent a single entity. Everything they have adapted to in the past is permanent. Or at least to the end that it reduces the damage of a first strike in any encounter after the fact before permanently adapting. Generally the time required for adapting is based on the situation and level of technology being used against them.

Who knows but we know that the Borg "only" assimilate, they don't reproduce, and they don't "create" new technology.

Dominis posted a statement on this which is completed in line with what I think. However, I would vouch that they do create new technology! They may assimilate the 'principles' of technology from a given race but they definitely create their own technology from the theories and pieces they have consumed. One example of this is the tractor beam/pulse, the Borg version is x times stronger than any previously encountered. Same goes for their weapons, armor and neuroscience.

In the episode of "Dark Frontier" when the queen and seven go to a planet for assimilation they are in a fleet of 2 cubes and their diamond.  When the Borg leave the system they have 3 cubes and the diamond.  The Borg build ships really fast but they require vast amount of resources.

I think a more plausible explanation is that a third cube reinforced, was on standby or simply did not appear on screen prior to the attack.

...if the Borg lose a battle, they don't just lose a ship, but also the drones on the ship which equals up to knowledge. 

I disagree, for example look at Picard in 'The Best of Both World's'. Once he was reclaimed, the fleet was still obliterated. Assuming you could argue that he was still part of the collective at that time, how come each progressive battle against the Borg seems harder for Starfleet? Ie. The battle of Sector 001. Where a modern, well equipped Starfleet force was decimated prior to the arrival of the USS Enterprise E.

I believe once the Borg have knowledge it becomes a part of their entity forever.

[Prowannabe]

posted on October 13th, 2008, 5:43 am

Last edited by Prowannabe on October 13th, 2008, 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Actually the Enterprise got Picard after the fleet was whiped out.  But anyways, you can think they create technology and grow people.  It doesn't really matter to me.  If you really think about it don't the Borg assimilate children as well and people who are pregnant with a baby?  If you say yes then that is a valid case against your hypotheses. 

Then the whole creation of technology, they DO NOT create, they modify what they have knowledge of.  Lets say something hits their hull, they know what it is from previous encouters and knowledge from assimilated people and technology and able to provide a counter measure. 

And the reason why Borg ships are so powerful compared to other ships is size mostly, if lets say you have a sov 25 times the size of a regular sov how powerful do you think you can make its phasers and torpedoes?  25 times larger yields and a larger power core to back it up?  That is why the Borg have huge ships, they need them, they give a huge edge against enemies.  Second to last thing, scout ships are used for scouting, not for assimilating, the ship voyager encountered wasn't a scout, it was a small attack vessel for assimilating low technology level life forms.  Last thing, the episode Drone which a drone was created from seven's nanoprobes and doctors holo-emmitter which by the way was 29th century technology did create a drone but even seven said they don't duplicate in this manner.

Watch these, these are from Star Trek telling you everything about the Borg.
[youtube]Ybw2AkJ7kYc&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]rVMh3Yh8bC8&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]QmS3EsGTGw0&feature=related[/youtube]

O, just saw something else, the Fed fleet that defended sector 001 was not destroyed in any means, if you look at the movie again you will see many ships still fighting, true 5-10 were destroyed but compared to the disaster of wolf 359 it is nothing.  The Borg were in fact losing the battle and they knew that which is why they created the plan to go back in time and assimilate earth.  They knew they couldn't do it now so they are trying other ways to accomplish it, even Picard stated that.
[youtube]_fsCGSoo2k4[/youtube]
[youtube]8YOX9ke4aRY[/youtube]

[Tyler]

posted on October 13th, 2008, 9:44 am

Last edited by Tyler on October 13th, 2008, 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

As far as I remember, in First Contact, that battle had been going on for around 3 hours and the Starfleet ships had barely got anything past the Cube's outer armor. They only won because they all fired on the co-ordinate that Picard gave them.

posted on October 13th, 2008, 2:29 pm

Yeah... we've all seen those videos...
To take this in a different direction: the Borg are NOT like an insect colony. I cannot think of a single instance of queens of hymenopterans, isopterans, or zygopterans that give orders. Likewise, the analogy would have to be extended to birth etc... but anywho.

If you are saying this "But anyways, you can think they create technology and grow people.  It doesn't really matter to me" than this discussion is over. You have just stated it is all related on opinion, and thus we cannot truly refute or discuss anything. If you bring in the statement "it doesn't really matter to me", no consensus can be made, because you have closed the discussion in your own mind.

25 times larger does not mean 25 times more powerful. It may mean more weapons on board but there is always a limit to actual power (yes, even in TV shows). Look at the self contained gravimetric torpedo after all: it is not "25 times larger" than its Fed counterparts, yet is quite a bit more powerful. Then again, look at a sphere or any of the smaller ships that are quite capable of assimilating much larger ships. They are not "25 times larger" yet they are quite a bit stronger than they "should" be if your analysis was reasonable. Likewise, look at an individual Borg: it is not 25 times larger, but it is much more powerful/strong than a simple Fed soldier.

...and if the Borg don't duplicate in this manner, than why did they have the technology to do so? (I don't remember your quote though)

What is creation but a modification of what already is? You are delving into philosophy now, as it is really quite easy to say that all of humanity's achievements are not true "new creations" but changes to old designs: from the crude wood wheel, to the harddrive.

posted on October 13th, 2008, 4:59 pm

Actually Queens do give orders through pheromones.  Even trees communicate thusly...
borg scout ships attack because it is ingrained.  Failure is not an option.  An ant will bite me and die in a death grip and probably thinks it will stop me to do its duty.  It is not a matter of size but instinct and efficiency.  If the scout fails to destroy a ship then the collective knows more that they did previously rather than sending fleets after each escalation. 

posted on October 13th, 2008, 8:01 pm

'Actually Queens do give orders through pheromones.  Even trees communicate thusly...
borg scout ships attack because it is ingrained.  Failure is not an option.  An ant will bite me and die in a death grip and probably thinks it will stop me to do its duty.  It is not a matter of size but instinct and efficiency.  If the scout fails to destroy a ship then the collective knows more that they did previously rather than sending fleets after each escalation.'

Except that the Borg Queen has 'real time' communication which is a lot quicker and more reliable than pheromones.

Borg ships are directed on the order of the queen, they may be sent to patrol X grid, or return to X Unicomplex. The small Borg ship that attacked Voyager was a great deal smaller than Voyager but quite capable of putting up a fight. Spheres as Dominus said are at maximum 600m in Diameter but I can think of no ships (other than potentially the Dominion dreadnought and the 'Tavara' which would stand a chance of winning).

And if you think it is a matter of duty, why then, does the queen consistently send just one cube to Earth? Why as well did she assemble a task force including her own ship to assimilate the planet in 'Dark Frontier'.

posted on October 13th, 2008, 8:29 pm

The Borg only sending one cube at a time is probably just something the studio wanted to do because we know if two cubes were sent they would take out earth very quickly.  This is a little off topic but I think the Borg were created by Q a long time ago to help Earth and the Federation progress, the Borg use many cubes to assimilate just a planet while they keep on sending only one ship every single time to the Federation which is a lot larger target?  After all the conflicts between the Federation and the Borg we know the Borg is capable of just whiping out the Alpha Quadrant.

posted on October 13th, 2008, 9:45 pm

Queens do not "give" orders through pheremones. When one colony interacts with another there is no decision by the queen "hey lets go attack them". Let us take QMP for example (queen mandibular pheremone in apis melifera): the amount of QMP that other bees encounter determines their duty (forager, nurser, guard etc..). The queen does NOT determine where the bees harvest, how they harvest, whether they sting or not etc... In other insects the queen provides even less functionality (in essence she produces almost no pheremones other than an identifier or brood identifier, and she is an egg-laying machine).

This is completely unlike the Queen of the Borg who is both the "end and the beginning" of the Borg. She is the Borg. The Borg rely on a collective, where all their thoughts are one: no insect or arthropod can do such a thing, nor do they have a caste that performs the same function as the Borg Queen (namely to bring order to the chaos-to make all minds one).

"Trees" communicate using pheremones, but it is not in the same manner as insects. A plant reponding to an herbivore may release a burst of jasmonic acid which induces the defenses of plants around it (possibly even intraspecific), but this chemical communication is very limited, and it is not even certain whether the plant is "trying" to produce this burst to warn others or whether it is just a byproduct (linolenic acid is converted to JA and induces all the defenses of the leaves surrounding the attack which may produce volatile compounds... or may not). Plant pheremonal research is relatively new, but for now it is clear that insects use pheremones in a much more regular/determined fashion to communicate with conspecifics. I specifically did not mention queens because in the hierarchy of social insects, their role is a lot more passive than, for example, worker bees communicating with eachother.

The Borg send only one ship to make you ask questions.  Like Prowannabe said, if they sent more, there would be NO STORYLINE as the Feds would cease to exist.

posted on October 13th, 2008, 10:03 pm

Very interesting Dominus, however... plant are producing phyto hormones instead of pheromones. Jasmonic acid is one of them. Just for the interest of it plants communication could be much more complex than we all thought. Scientists discovered communication processes over the roots. Most trees, mainly in a healthy forest, are linked with each other through fungi called mycorrhiza. Over the hyphes of this fungie chemical elements and molecules can be transported from one plant to another. the thing is... yet we don't know if it's an activ or passive process and if the fungus itself controls it or the plants.
Sry but I had to release that shit... forgive me but this is so interesting.

posted on October 13th, 2008, 10:23 pm

No problem  Mind if I join you?
Calling them phytohormones is more  a question of whether you are saying that plants communicate or not interspecifically as the definition of a pheremone is a substance released by one individual that modifies the behavior of another of the same species(as opposed to kairomones or allelochemicals). So indeed your use of phytohormone is more correct than my use of pheremones (although I was using echo7's language  )

Indeed I am inclined to agree once more; plant communication could be much more complex, afterall it is a relatively new field. Admittedly I have not heard of anything regarding hyphae and how they can be used for plant-pant communication though (generally, given that it is mutualistic I have heard the various N-synthesis stuff). As far as I know, the plant controls the introduction of hyphae as it (the plant) produces the chemicals which induce root changes to induce the hyphae to colonize. In fact, if you stress a plant enough, it won't produce these chemicals/physical folds and no hyphae can colonize. Likewise, giving enough nutrients (N,P) to the plant causes the plant to reject the mycorrhizae or never accept them in the first place (hinting that it is an active process)

Then again, back to the linkage thing: not all trees have these fungi, and not all are of the same species... so communication becomes even more complex (though there was that wonderful example of a supposed fungal superorganism...)

aaaaaaand ....back on topic.
BORG