V3 Borg

[Tyrel]

posted on December 23rd, 2008, 7:36 am

Last edited by Tyrel on December 23rd, 2008, 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

At the moment i'm struck between a new "Interception Module" for the Scout Cube which adds additional anti-destroyer weaponry or a way to combine Scout Cubes to get some kind of Defensive System.. just wild thoughts at the moment, i'm working on it

Why not make them able to plant themselves as stationary ships and through that gain extra weaponary and so function as defensive structure. If the player desides to rush they could turned back into ordinary scout cubes. However, changing to a stationary form could only be possible through docking at a station already existing (any) like a sensor array. this prevents others from beeing rushed in way which is not fair...if you understand what i mean.

Hmm, actually i pretty much like this idea, but don't forget that whenever you set those scout cubes up as a defensive station, you should increase their weapon's range to Long, and also you should give them some kind of a timer so that they aren't able to switch between stationary and mobile modes rapidly.
Btw. Optec, i think you're the one responsibe for the models and textures, are you? I just wish to say, that at full detail, once i zoom in i can't stop staring at borg ships...

Btw. the borg starts of slowly that is true, but why does everyone rely only on the scout cubes? Once you finish building your miners, you can start building Probes at your HQ. Those 17-17-17 Values aren't that bad in the beginning... Although in my opinion those Probes cost too much...

What i want to see at the borg are two things:
1 - Not all of them, but a few of the special abilityes should differ between the two avatars.
2 - Hey, it would be great to be able to join 8 scout cubes into a cube

Also there is Meredith's idea which i pretty much like too - let's have something what costs priority.
Hmm, what if we would have upgrades for all combat vessels which cost mainly priority and a few other resources... and these upgrades would increase the maximum number of modules that can be installed by 1. For smaller ships we could have one of these, for bigger ones like the Sphere or the Cube we could have two of these upgrades (So that makes a Cube 6 -> 7 -> 8 ).
Although that would require you to adjust the maximum limit/module on some ships, like a Cube with 8 modules should be able to have at least 2 beam modules...
Hmm, or what if we could pick if we want to upgrade the ship to be able to have +1 maximum modules OR to be able to have one more of a limited module???
I love this idea...
Oh, and we could call these ships something like Unimatrix 01 - Queen's Bodyguard or something... Or just simply Optimized Cube, Optimized Sphere, etc.

posted on December 23rd, 2008, 7:54 am

The problem with borg is that it has too few ships and gets swarmed very easyly. Every borg ship has to deal with at least 10 enemy ships at a time. I think that cubes, spheres and diamonds should be able to distroy a sabre and smaller ships like it with just one hit, witch doesn't happen. The toughest cube has only 208 offensive while 2 tavara maxed have together 260 ! Can 2 romulan ships take out a cube borg ? Please, make the borg stronger, borg really fits my play style, but they are too weak in multiplayer games and I get smashed every time.  :(
I think adaptation matrix should be available for spheres too, at least one slot available. And the trasnwarp only for scout cubes ? They have only 17 offensive and because they are small, they can't go too far.

posted on December 23rd, 2008, 7:57 am

SEEING AS NO ONE WILL RESPOND TO MINE EVEN THO AT LEAST 35 PEOPLE HAVE READ IT >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
ill just put it here and hopefully somone will respond to it

As we all know the borg in V3 are weak in the beggining, (and later to) and need some changes, here are my thoughts.

1st of all i think the borg mining ships should be like everyones else, they cost alot and to mine more then one isnt very good, and also the mining sation should be able to be placed

now the main problme, suplies suplies suplies suplies, everyone memorized it now? good.  I had to build over 15 supply station things and even that wasnt very good, it takes up way to much space.  I think that you could easily solve the borg problem if you could just purchase them like every other race, or at least make it 3supplies every ten seconds cmon!

Also bring the costs down a bit

Now the other thing is those little borg numbers, like 100 you can build a cube and 4o a sphere, yeah take those down a bit the first half is okay, but i think it should be 30 sphere, 40 pyramid, 50 diamond, 70 cube

or you could just make it like other races, with the reaserch stations "unlocking" the other designs

now one problem i have that i dont think other people have thouyght of is this, for instance, a cube, you have 6 slots to fill up, can we make it so that we can launche them and then upgrade them later, cus today i was playing a game, and i had 5 out of 6 filled up and i didnt have enough dilithium for a 6th slot yet, (because the mining ships have to mine to 600 first, could we change that to?) and while i was waiting all of my supply stations(like 15 because, its one every 10 second like i mentioned earlier), save 3 were destroyed when i finnaly got the 6th slot i killed them.  So i think thatd itd be better if you could launch bare, and then upgrade as needed.

Also all borg ships should be able to target two ships, but i belive you should be enabled to upgrade it.


My last thing is this.  How do borg grow.  Assimilation.  Every ship should be able to assimilate no matter what, however i belive you should be able to upgrade this, just like the uprgrading of the weapons.

Oh sry that wasnt my last thing but it dose pertain to assimilation, i liked the ability from armada 2 that enabled you to take others technology, like the cube would go up to a akira and take its little red powerup torpedo thingy, and then that cube could use it.

And finnaly, transwarp gate would be awsome.

posted on December 23rd, 2008, 8:08 am

  No, I like the borg just as they are, they just need balancing. The priority thing is there so that you can't build a cube from the beggining of the game, after the first cube is build, it has no role anymore. It's like a timer. And the mining ships design is brilliant, there is no need for a construction ship to go to a moon to build a mining station. Really clever.
All borg ships target at least 2 ships, spheres can target up to 4 targets.

posted on December 23rd, 2008, 8:10 am

well if you actually red mu thin i talked about the priority thing

[Anonymous]

posted on December 23rd, 2008, 8:34 am

Last edited by Anonymous on December 23rd, 2008, 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

  The supplies are not an issue, the "Optimise" avatar has the possibility to upgrade the  incubation complex to produce 1 at 6 sec. After building 6 of that, I had no problems.
  Man, they busted their a**** to make the borg something different and you want them to be just like other races ? Then the borg is not for you.

posted on December 23rd, 2008, 8:37 am

no i like the borg being different, i just want the supplies to be redone, while there at it they should make other races different to

posted on December 23rd, 2008, 9:04 am

once you get going to borg are good supply is only a problem if you want to build very quickly if you have 5 stations upgraded then that is good you dont need any more. and one more thing when you take the optimize avatar the recycling station is more or less useless I have never noticed a difference in my game if I dont use it only that I have more supply, it needs to be able to be upgraded to make more faster to make a difference cause right now its just taking up space. but I dont think there needs to be anything changed with miners I love them I can build like 10 and send them out all by them selves to get resources and they can build their own mining station. I think the biggest thing that needs some tweaking is priority to make it count later on in the game right now once you get to 100 it does not matter and most of the time I play I get to 100 before I even build the second upgrade for +20 I just think it needs to be used later in the game, maby the command cube can set you back like 100 priority so you cant just pump them out like crazy if you have lots of resources. and it might be interesting to make every ship cost priority tho then it just turns into supply. but something needs to happen with priority because one strategy for the borg in a multi player game is to have one borg and every one else on the team gets resources and gives them to the borg and the borg builds ships like crazy cause they can be built almost instantly.

posted on December 23rd, 2008, 9:47 am

Yup, balancing borg for multiplayer will be a tough one. Good luck, Optec. 

posted on December 23rd, 2008, 11:10 am

For the supply issue you should be able too make the Borg more Borg like with instead of having to make a large base just to gain supply, have a larger structure i.e. Unimatrix basically start out the game and you add parts and upgrade those parts and make it very powerful, with all the episodes with Borg in it we only see 2 stations, the Unimatrix complex, and the Transwarp Hub.  The Borg as Q said "are the ultimate user" they don't build huge bases all over the place like expansions and such like other races do, the Borg has one huge station that makes all ships the Borg need.  The Borg should have one main station that is very powerful but has MANY upgrades, the Borg upgrade all their stuff, they adapt and assimilate and consume.  To help the Borg out by making them seem more "Borgy" and also increasing their differences with other races while at the same time fixing the problems you are having with them.  List of mechanics that should be modified or removed:

1.) Borg should only have 1 starting station, this station will have "upgrades" such as a research wing, building wing, resource collection wing, and finally defense systems throughout the complex to provide defense if needed.  This station will make all ships needed by the player, starting with resource collection vessels and scouting cubes, to Cubes and Spheres in the end game.

2.) Priority system out, replace it with a system fitting the Borg, Assimilation points will be the determining factor on what ships the player is able to put on the map.  To gain Assimilation points you can do one of two things or both, the research part of the unicomplex can have research modules for the understanding of other races, gaining AP slowly.  And the second way how to accrue AP is by Assimilating enemy vessels and stations and absorbing them into the collective, i.e. dicomissioning them.

3.) The Borg Avatars need to have some flavor, how it stands if you pick the Assimilation Avatar you are going to have a hard time because you don't gain the upgrade for supply and the Borg now can't really assimilate anyone...

4.) The Borg should have their Assimilation power ramped up quite a bit, all of this depends on the ship in question and what mods are on the ship but how it stands you can't even assimilate a defiant if your in a cube with full modules just for assimilation...That is very pathetic...Many ways to fix this, just use a little imagination.

5.) Borg ships are huge...you have good sizing for the Borg ships now, I would increase the Cube and Sphere sizes by about 1.2, only reason is because the Sphere in many episodes is right below the Cube in size but Spheres were usually designed for specific duties while the Cube was designed for anything.  Excluding the Tactical Cube which was designed for sheer power.  The crew for the Borg ships are good, I would increase the Borg Cube just a tad but all in all they have great crew stats.

The Fleetops team made a good attempt for the Borg.  True it isn't the best but they did a good job...  I want to give you a little piece of information for this very tricky part of game development...for the Borg you can make them as powerful as you want but with everything you increase in power, decrease or add in something else to make it balanced.  When you use this approach just create a simple diagram on how you want each race to play and feel, then add simple values for each depending on many factors, than for each plus in something add a minus in something else that should keep balance for the game, and in more advanced models you can create pretty simple algebraic equations to find out if a side is way overpowered or underpowered or what not. 

I don't want to seem like I know everything about game design or something, far from it, I'm just an analyst so I use math a lot and figuring out problems is what I do...and I love what I do. 
Good luck on this problem. 

posted on December 23rd, 2008, 6:07 pm

3.) The Borg Avatars need to have some flavor, how it stands if you pick the Assimilation Avatar you are going to have a hard time because you don't gain the upgrade for supply and the Borg now can't really assimilate anyone...

I agree completely right now the borg can not assimilate. now I know when you think about it this is very cannon (the borg never actually took over ships) but right now assimilation is worthless the only way I can use it is have a fleet of ships use it on one small builder and transport at the same time with out anything else thats the only way to use it. another way you can assimilate is if you get lucky and the life support gets shut off, in which case most of the crew are dead anyway, and another thing thou I dont know if its possible when you send troops over to a ship they should not die if the ship does not have life support we have seen the borg survive outside in space so why should they die inside a enemy ship that does not have life support.

posted on December 23rd, 2008, 8:56 pm

I disagree assimilation is cannon, in first contact they tried and nearly suceeded in assimilating the enterprise......

posted on December 23rd, 2008, 9:23 pm

1.) Borg should only have 1 starting station, this station will have "upgrades" such as a research wing, building wing, resource collection wing, and finally defense systems throughout the complex to provide defense if needed.  This station will make all ships needed by the player, starting with resource collection vessels and scouting cubes, to Cubes and Spheres in the end game.

I already suggested this some time ago. I think its a good idea but there is one problem with it. On little maps I doubt u could even place 1 huge structure.
The other problem is that I dont really know if its doable in A2 engine

2.) Priority system out, replace it with a system fitting the Borg, Assimilation points will be the determining factor on what ships the player is able to put on the map.  To gain Assimilation points you can do one of two things or both, the research part of the unicomplex can have research modules for the understanding of other races, gaining AP slowly.  And the second way how to accrue AP is by Assimilating enemy vessels and stations and absorbing them into the collective, i.e. dicomissioning them.

I think the priority system suits the Borg quite fine tbh and plus your suggesting a very similar thing but with a different name. Also I have the same problem with your idea that I had with Jans', what if a player doesnt want to assimilate and instead wants to annihilate Doesnt this restriction narrow the strategy selection for the Borg a bit?

3.) The Borg Avatars need to have some flavor, how it stands if you pick the Assimilation Avatar you are going to have a hard time because you don't gain the upgrade for supply and the Borg now can't really assimilate anyone...

I agree that the differences between the 2 avatars should be bigger, however I still maintain that the Assimilation avatar is better due to early Assimilator availability. And sure they can assimilate just fine

4.) The Borg should have their Assimilation power ramped up quite a bit, all of this depends on the ship in question and what mods are on the ship but how it stands you can't even assimilate a defiant if your in a cube with full modules just for assimilation...That is very pathetic...Many ways to fix this, just use a little imagination.

I agree with this point, the holding beam should be more powerful.

The Fleetops team made a good attempt for the Borg.  True it isn't the best but they did a good job...

Which is the best then?

posted on December 24th, 2008, 5:01 am

Well tbh I doubt you will be able to get a huge base in a small map, the station should be big but not the size of the map, make it roughly 3 times the size of the borg starting station and that should work fine for size issues... and it is doable on this engine, think of science stations and the smaller klingon shipyard now...

Another thing is that the priority system is designed for the Borg too wait a longer time before becoming a huge threat...it was designed to make the Borg weaker, that is all...And priority seems like a Federation term...Borg don't care about priority...isn't that irrelevent?  And if you completely read the post you would see there would be many ways of achieving Assimilation points, one by waiting it out like Priority now, and second by assimilating ships and stations and possibly something else...

Also if you don't want to assimilate people and add them too the Borg why be the Borg?  Isn't that what the Borg do???  Prepare to be assimilated, resistance is futile...

As the Borg you should have a great power but also a great burden by assimilation the Borg NEED assimilation, that is how they function, they don't create, they assimilate...  To be saying if someone wants to be the Borg and only destroy people its like saying you want to be the Dominion instead of them trying to destroy their enemy, you should have it so if they want to take over huge stations they can do that... There is a line between cannon and gameplay and how it is Borg are mostly towards gameplay now...how you see it the Borg shouldn't really be the Borg and just be another race that makes their drones and gets supply from trade...

Assimilation is cannon, the episodes and books give us enough information to give us a pretty picture how the Borg get things done...

And finally there is no best, the best is what YOU can think and conceive, but ones mind changes so there in fact is no best in any reasoning, saying there is is stating the universe is finite and the human mind is finite, once you think the best is already out there you will stay where you are and not move, not progress in any way...the people who further the advances of humankind are the ones who say what if...

I'm not saying the game is bad, I'm saying it could be better, everything could be better, but just trying to help out with ideas to help foster some thought about how to fix any and all problems we have been seeing in the game.  The game is great, I love it, can't really play it because I'm caught up in work but sometimes I just like throwing it up on my TV in the office and just look at AI matches, kinda sad but fun for me. 

posted on December 24th, 2008, 11:23 am

Well tbh I doubt you will be able to get a huge base in a small map, the station should be big but not the size of the map, make it roughly 3 times the size of the borg starting station and that should work fine for size issues... and it is doable on this engine, think of science stations and the smaller klingon shipyard now...

I didnt say that the station would be the size of the map, I just said it'd be difficult to place it on the map, as they are not just empty space

Another thing is that the priority system is designed for the Borg too wait a longer time before becoming a huge threat...it was designed to make the Borg weaker, that is all...And priority seems like a Federation term...Borg don't care about priority...isn't that irrelevent?

Actually, the Borg, just like any other race have to worry about where to put their forces the most officiently . The borg dont have unlimited ammount of ships so they have to place them according to what is in their best interest - what has priority over something. If they didnt care about priority, that would mean every ship would do as it pleases and they certainly wouldnt work like a collective and they would soon be destroyed because of it.
Also one must consider that every race must have a tech tree in an RTS game. You cant have one race able to be building cubes right off and the other start with destroyers. How you design that tech tree is up to the team though, so if they say that they think that Borg would place their ships according to priority of the mission at hand, then so be it, that is the Borgs tech tree then. And I must say I agree with them completely, you cant have the same tech tree for all the races in a game, so far they are all different and it adds diversity to the game, thus increasing its value.

And if you completely read the post you would see there would be many ways of achieving Assimilation points, one by waiting it out like Priority now, and second by assimilating ships and stations and possibly something else...

I have read the whole post and thats why I said u were suggesting something similar with a different name. What you are suggesting is that if you choose optimisation avatar you will have to build those supply stations, thus costing you a lot of money and time or try and assimiate vessles with this avatar, eventhough the Assimilation avatar is specifically designed for quicker and more efficient assimilation. Wouldnt that make the Optimisation avatar, kind of irrelevant? maybe even redundant.
So my point would be, if your idea was in the game, the avatar system would be completely unbalanced and thus unnecessarry for the borg.

Also if you don't want to assimilate people and add them too the Borg why be the Borg?  Isn't that what the Borg do???  Prepare to be assimilated, resistance is futile... 

Yep, but the Borg also destroy if they have no interest in assimilation, you see they have a choice. With your idea there is no choice, its assimilation or be fucked with the optimisation avatar. The proof for this is the tactical cube, is it designed to assimilate vessles or cultures? Nope, its specifically designed to destroy them, thus proving my point that the Borg dont ALWAYS assimilate.

As the Borg you should have a great power but also a great burden by assimilation the Borg NEED assimilation, that is how they function, they don't create, they assimilate...  To be saying if someone wants to be the Borg and only destroy people its like saying you want to be the Dominion instead of them trying to destroy their enemy, you should have it so if they want to take over huge stations they can do that... There is a line between cannon and gameplay and how it is Borg are mostly towards gameplay now...how you see it the Borg shouldn't really be the Borg and just be another race that makes their drones and gets supply from trade...

Oh they do assimilate, but they also destory. That is my point, if your playing a skirmish its only a very very small battle in the universe and basically the Borg get all the resources they need from the collective for that battle. It doesnt matter jack shit to the collective if you assimilate 5 more vessles in a skirmish they probably deem minor anyway.
The borg do create, or do u think they assimilated all the cubes and stations from another race?
There is a line between canon and gameplay and in my opinion that line is far far far far away from being crossed in FO. The fact of the matter is, how they protraid the borg in FO is about a million times better than they have ever been protraid in an RTS, that my friend is a fact.
I also did not say that they should be making their drones or getting supplies from trade. In the supply stations they create supplies and they get the drones they need from the collective. Or maybe you think that you should assimilate all the drones you need for your skirmish right there and maybe they should just put the crew resource back in. I dare you to assimilate enough crew to be able to build 1 cube , not to mention the stations. Other races can get suppplies from trade and they get their manpower from their empire as well, or do they make them right there on the battlefield? 

And finally there is no best, the best is what YOU can think and conceive, but ones mind changes so there in fact is no best in any reasoning, saying there is is stating the universe is finite and the human mind is finite, once you think the best is already out there you will stay where you are and not move, not progress in any way...the people who further the advances of humankind are the ones who say what if...

I agree with you, but you said that the mod is not the best and IMO that means its not very good (I could be wrong though, since English is not my first language  ). If I misunderstood your statement I apologize. 

I'm not saying the game is bad, I'm saying it could be better, everything could be better, but just trying to help out with ideas to help foster some thought about how to fix any and all problems we have been seeing in the game.  The game is great, I love it, can't really play it because I'm caught up in work but sometimes I just like throwing it up on my TV in the office and just look at AI matches, kinda sad but fun for me. 

Of course everything could be better lol, though IMO for a handful of people to create something that is so much better than the majority of the games that come out atm its pretty damn good lol.
Its good that you help with ideas, Im sure they appreciate it. I try to do the same thing, though it seems we just dont see eye-to-eye regarding the Borg But hey thats why the star trek universe is so great, its fantasy and anyone can imagine what the Borg would be like in their own unique way
Though, I must say, try playing it a bit more U'll see you will grow to love the Borg, even the Optimisation avatar