Fed Borg and current balance in 3.2.5

posted on August 27th, 2011, 9:11 am

about your table, comparing many of those ships is ridiculous due to their differing building methods.

scube: obviously gonna be stronger, its worth a small fleet of non borg starting ships
probe: costs a lot more, so should be stronger
brel and kbq: they dont need just 1 yard, they need a yard and an extension. they are the "chassis 1" level destroyers of the klinks. the kbq also costs quite a bit more than a sabre. the brel is similar in costs, but has a short range and is weaker, hence it gets higher offence than the sabre.
rhienn: costs more than a sabre, so should be stronger.

the bug is the only real ship that is comparable, and what it has in slightly higher stats than a sabre, is made up for by it having a passive that makes it incredibly vulnerable. the sabre has no passive weakness, only strength in dodging weapons. the bug also has less range.

sabre isnt that bad, its a nice cheap torpedo soak.

posted on August 27th, 2011, 9:47 am

The big strength of the sabre is her 360degree long range firing phaser. it will never miss and it can't be surprised by attacks from behind(like the Rhienn or B'rel for example) and it makes her an excellent kiter. That's what makes the sabre really powerful when used in masses. Against other fast phaser firing ships the sabre will lose though because of her low defense and offense and medium speed. It's not a no brain strategy since it's not useful against everything and can be countered.

posted on August 27th, 2011, 10:10 pm

rhienn: costs more than a sabre, so should be stronger.

What's actually quite funny is that Sabers will slaughter Rheinns. They also can severely damage lahvals while you are etching to, Oh say Excellsior IIs . E2s and Sabers are a deadly combo for the Romulans.

posted on August 27th, 2011, 10:59 pm

What's actually quite funny is that Sabers will slaughter Rheinns. They also can severely damage lahvals while you are etching to, Oh say Excellsior IIs . E2s and Sabers are a deadly combo for the Romulans.

in pure spam v spam then numbers will be on the fed's side and even phase plates wont save the rhienns. i was talking about tokra's comparison of each ship on its own.

sabre spamming (even while teching) vs romulans isnt something i'd do since most rom players go helev, and the griffin will never miss a sabre, and will tear them down with those powerful beams, while a few griffins using sensor jammer on a spam pack of sabres will easily drop the sabre's shields. and the griffin is strong enough to cloak out under sabre fire. by the time any e2s are about, the sabres will all be gone sadly. then the roms just have e2s to deal with. rhienns mixed in would help for the miss rate, but by this time the e2s will be really outnumbered, and wont have any chance of going out on the attack.

mijural would have a slightly harder time dealing with it early on. cehlaers would be ounumered, but that high beam dps with hdsg would make for a good combo vs sabre/e2. just have to avoid that early bumrush of sabres. once the first cehlaer is out, the sabres are gonna be doing half of their already puny damage. but will be taking huge amounts of pain. the added bonus is that even though the e2 will hit with its torps, the e2 will also do half damage.

posted on August 28th, 2011, 3:02 am

Personally, I'd rather have the Sabre go medium to short range AND loose the 360, in return for slightly better guns, and then re-do the moonsoon or intrepid as the early long range ship, prehaps the moonsoon.

posted on August 28th, 2011, 4:50 am

You can't kill any sabers before I get my E2s. Yard placing will keep them alive long enough, and then it's over for the Romulans Also Griffins don't disable shields anymore unless they are a veteran. The whole point of building the sabers is that they are cheap and can help you tech to large yard ships, and Warpins faster. Griffins are too damned expensive to rush me with anyway.

posted on August 28th, 2011, 6:59 am

No funny, I agree that Griffins or Leavhals take out Sabers well. Especially the Leavhal does imo with its lvl3 special.

posted on August 28th, 2011, 10:14 am

You can't kill any sabers before I get my E2s. Yard placing will keep them alive long enough, and then it's over for the Romulans Also Griffins don't disable shields anymore unless they are a veteran. The whole point of building the sabers is that they are cheap and can help you tech to large yard ships, and Warpins faster. Griffins are too damned expensive to rush me with anyway.

i wasnt talking about disabling shields subsystems, i was talking about using sensor jammer to kill the shields with damage. sabres are one of the most vulnerable ships to sensor jammer, they easily can lose shields to only a few jammers.

sabre spam dies painfully vs helev.

if you are just making a couple sabres on the way to e2 rush then the sabres arent the important consideration, and the romulans have to deal with the e2 mainly.

a few rhienns would help as without sabre spam numbers the rhienn will be able to cloak out. phase plates makes them take 30% less damage from sabres and e2, which is enough to let them cloak out.

posted on August 28th, 2011, 2:33 pm

It's not about what will kill the saber, it's about what will kill the E2. Even Lahvals did not kill sabers, I managed to take out 5 of those things with 4 sabers and 1 E2 no problem. Maybe we should make a new thread for this discussion xD

posted on August 28th, 2011, 3:51 pm

It's not about what will kill the saber, it's about what will kill the E2.

if you are just making a couple sabres on the way to e2 rush then the sabres arent the important consideration, and the romulans have to deal with the e2 mainly.

o rly?

if u killed 5 leahvals with 4 sabres and 1 e2 then you must have been playing against a weak player. a couple meta d will straight away reduce you to 3 sabres and 1 e2. then they can just auto repair and cloak out. e2 cant kite and are very slow, so the sabres will either get shot by leahvals or completely abandon the e2 when kiting. either way the 4 leahvals normal fire will damage a ship and force it away, leaving you with only 3 ships. at which point the battle should just end as neither side is in a terribly good state.

a new thread would be fine by me.

posted on August 28th, 2011, 3:54 pm

That would present an interesting fight, griffins/leahval vs saber spam.  If the fed player is very cautious in the beginning, he can outflank the slower griffins and get enough mass to kill the leahvals.  If he uses cloak detect well he could be an unstoppable enemy.

The key point in that game would be the first battle, 1 griffin vs 2 sabers or griffin+leahval vs 4-6 sabers.  If hyper-impulse isn't researched yet the fed player has to be very careful to not get caught away from his base.

A saber spam vs cehlaer rush would also be interesting, since it's hard for either player to transition away from their starting ship.  The fed has to get engineering up and chassis 1, and even though monsoons slaughter cehlaers they won't tank for the sabers.  The Romulan player on the other hand can ONLY build Cehlaer or maybe tech to D'Deridex because his economy doesn't allow him to build a second yard in the early game.

posted on August 28th, 2011, 4:22 pm

Could you guys please get back to topic, which is "Borg Assim vs Feds"?  ::)

posted on August 28th, 2011, 10:46 pm

5 Lahvals decloaked, 3 of them died, the rest retreated. Also Redmanmark is a great player. He took out one E2 and one saber, but by that time a second E2 was arriving to take it's place. I was in dead center of the map and continued on toward his expansion. Had a second engagement with 2 e2s and 5 sabers and won. The Torps just hit the Lahvals with such force that they often die before you can repair or cloak the ship out. Anyway, as for Assim goes. There is no way that they can assimilate a turret. Maybe it would be wise to turret up some while you build up a sizable fleet. Play it very defensively.

posted on August 28th, 2011, 11:00 pm

5 Lahvals decloaked, 3 of them died, the rest retreated. Also Redmanmark is a great player. He took out one E2 and one saber, but by that time a second E2 was arriving to take it's place. I was in dead center of the map and continued on toward his expansion. Had a second engagement with 2 e2s and 5 sabers and won. The Torps just hit the Lahvals with such force that they often die before you can repair or cloak the ship out. Anyway, as for Assim goes. There is no way that they can assimilate a turret. Maybe it would be wise to turret up some while you build up a sizable fleet. Play it very defensively.

if u wanna stay off topic, then mark must have made some mistakes. 1 e2 and a small force of sabres should never catch out auto repair. maybe there was a little lag for mark, cos auto repair should easily handle that damage. i wouldnt be scared of losing leahvals til at least 2 or 3 e2s. with so few ships both players should be taking advantage of the slower pace and be keeping nearly every ship alive, with the exception of the rare loss to a powerful volley of meta d/proxy torp style specials. that early, just take the couple sabres you can get and make sure you protect the investment in the leahvals. then play in a style that will exploit the weaknesses of the e2s (inability to retreat and reliance on torps).

posted on August 29th, 2011, 12:48 am

Agreed with Myles.