What do you think will/would happen to the Cardassians (post

[RedEyedRaven]

posted on June 22nd, 2010, 9:05 pm

Last edited by RedEyedRaven on June 22nd, 2010, 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Cardassians there don't have that much, and what they do have would easily fall into what we know survived the war. All they have that doesn't fit is what they got from the (brief) alliance with the Kessok.

A rather small group, overall.

Also considering the fact that two Sovereigns and a small taskforce of not that rare seen federation vessels in the Maelstrom were enough to push them back to zero again (also the cardassians in Bridge Commander were following a specific internal faction, the House of Matan). Those few romulan and klingon ships aren't even worth mentioning there. Except for the idea of the Kessok, the game was an epic fail in my view. And the Kessok probably are only good because you don't learn much about them that could mess them up yet. I would like to see the Kessok as a minor faction in FO as well.


Overall:
The cardassians after the war seem to be no matter of discussion when it comes to power-balance in the alpha-quadrant. Their Obsidian Order was obliterated as well as most of their fleet. Their homeworld was in shambles after the founder's punishment for Damars rebellion, so they will have had a lot to do to get into at least better circumstances to do something different then just rebuild again. And I don't think they took that much help from other factions like the federation, even if they on their parts probably try to make the cardassians ready for joining the federation. There is where cardassian proudness comes into play again. They will try to do most things on their own, but this will take a lot more time then just making it into the FO-era.

posted on June 23rd, 2010, 12:56 am

i'm gonna quote myself, because i dont see the point of typing it out again for people who dont read my posts.

watch that episode, you will see that a small fleet of ships was able to completely destroy the surface of a planet in 1 volley. thats in seconds, with a rather small fleet, no turrets or space stations in orbit, just a few ships.

we saw in the last episode that the dominion had under their control a large network of orbital defence platforms, which were quite well armed, stripping the shields and hull of the galaxy class USS Galaxy quite fast, in the first battle of chintoka. the dominion easily possessed the firepower to kill all life on cardassia prime in minutes. which appears to be what they did, the founder ordered ALL cardassians killed, weyoun didnt like the idea so he said it would take a while (hoping the founder would recind the order) but she didnt.

the question is whether the cardassians on other worlds were made dead as well, which i believe they were not. maybe small groups of jemhadar left on those planets killed some, but not all.

Hey theres no need to get like that, and I did read your post. But if you reread my post you'll see that I completely ruled out the ships. Why? Because they were in a major battle, the last of the war, in orbit.

Based on what I saw in the last episode I am confident in wagering that the entire genocide was done by grand forces. You forget that the Founder was on Cardassia and that the Dominion refused to so much as send men into the command centre out of fear of hurting her by accident. And you think they'd try to glass the entire planet from orbit? Thats makes zero sense.

Furthermore the command centre was low on guards because (it was said) most were sent out to help with the genocide. This further goes towards my point of them doing it all with ground troops. Also note that the show SHOWED the planet after the war was finished. Buildings were ruined, but still standing, and refugees were everywhere.

Hence I stand by my argument that the genocide was nowhere near as bad as you are making it out to be.

posted on June 23rd, 2010, 2:31 am

Heh, in the last episode we even heard the number of casualties on Cardassia as I recall - "more than 800 million Cardassians".

posted on June 23rd, 2010, 7:01 am

I have to agree with Gorgo on this one. There was no indication that the fleet obliterated the planet from orbit. I definately sounded like most of the killing was done by Dominion ground troops. It really wouldnt make too much sense to wipe out the whole planet as that would be a huge waste of infrastructure and the fact that their base with the founder leader was on the planet. Also they did say a rough death toll around the 800 million mark, now unless that planet is severly underpopulated that would likely be only 1/4 to maybe 1/6 of the planetary population. (im assuming they would have something around the 4-5 billion mark). Now I would also assume that other colony worlds would possibly have gotten the same orders and any Dominion troops would have started to wipe out the naive populations but given the fact that they would only have a couple hours I highly doubt the colony worlds were wiped out completely.

So as is I would say the Cardassians while they did suffer heavy losses they are hardly an endangered species, however much of their infrastructure has been destroyed, much of their economy was wiped out and even with the left over fleet they are in no position to do much of anything with those ships. Im gonna say they rebuild with the federations assistance and maybe if Garak is in charge, he can convince the war weary people to give up conquest and live in peace with their neighbors. I doubt they would join the federation, but I can definately see them forming an alliance with them much as the Klingons did after realizing they could no longer afford the hostilities. However they will spend several decades just rebuilding their homeworld and will likely have little or no influence beyond their boarders for the forseeable future.

posted on June 23rd, 2010, 7:17 am

Bridge Commander was great, one of the best Star Trek games ever(I hoped STO would copy a bit from that game, too bad they didn't), but about the Cardassians you are right, they were very underpowered  .
800 Million is a huge number, but Cardassia survived.

The strength of torpedoes: look at First Contact: the strength of a Borg(!) torpedo there was similar to a handgrenade, or some small artillery fire . We have no numbers for Star Trek weaponry, so it's always as strong as the plot needs it. If the Enterprise phasers can wipe out a continent, they can, if Romulans and Cardassians need a whole fleet, then that's the way it is, if Zefram Cochrane hast to survive the Borg make ridiculous damage and if the Dominion needs hours to bombard Cardassia than that's the way it is.

[Tyler]

posted on June 23rd, 2010, 9:16 am

Last edited by Tyler on June 23rd, 2010, 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Seems people forget the founders plan was just to slaughter as many people as possible to hurt the enemy so much they would lose as much as if they had actually lost. They had no interest in winning, just the massacre of as many innocents as they could.

I have to agree with Gorgo on this one. There was no indication that the fleet obliterated the planet from orbit. I definately sounded like most of the killing was done by Dominion ground troops. It really wouldnt make too much sense to wipe out the whole planet as that would be a huge waste of infrastructure and the fact that their base with the founder leader was on the planet. Also they did say a rough death toll around the 800 million mark, now unless that planet is severly underpopulated that would likely be only 1/4 to maybe 1/6 of the planetary population. (im assuming they would have something around the 4-5 billion mark). Now I would also assume that other colony worlds would possibly have gotten the same orders and any Dominion troops would have started to wipe out the naive populations but given the fact that they would only have a couple hours I highly doubt the colony worlds were wiped out completely.

In a few hours, 20 ships can destroy the crust of a planet. The Dominion had thousands above Cardassia, their goal was the complete genocide of the Cardassian species, plus they are well known for rebuilding very fast and Cardassian inferstructure was useless to them. Do the math.

One character (Odo, I think) even said they were being destroyed from orbit. Colony worlds would have had it easier since they would only be attacked by troops instead of ships, though.

So as is I would say the Cardassians while they did suffer heavy losses they are hardly an endangered species, however much of their infrastructure has been destroyed, much of their economy was wiped out and even with the left over fleet they are in no position to do much of anything with those ships. Im gonna say they rebuild with the federations assistance and maybe if Garak is in charge, he can convince the war weary people to give up conquest and live in peace with their neighbors. I doubt they would join the federation, but I can definately see them forming an alliance with them much as the Klingons did after realizing they could no longer afford the hostilities. However they will spend several decades just rebuilding their homeworld and will likely have little or no influence beyond their boarders for the forseeable future.

The Cardassians have no influence in their own borders, they were occupied by the Federation Alliance.

posted on June 23rd, 2010, 12:04 pm

Heh, in the last episode we even heard the number of casualties on Cardassia as I recall - "more than 800 million Cardassians".

I always wondered about that number. As far as I know and understand that planet is approximatly as large as earth. Further it is highly inhabitated, as we mostly see cieties view - on the other hand memory beta offers 8 billion inhabintants. It's said that the number of victims was still rising when 800 million were counted. Even in a critical erspecitve that leads to the assumption that the causalities are quite far from 100%. Another indication that the cardassian economy is crippled, but there is still enough population to rebuild the union. If one takes germany's developement between 1945 and 75 as example it could be possible that cardassias economy is probably reestablished within 30 years too.

posted on June 23rd, 2010, 12:23 pm

firstly, about how the cardies on cardassia prime would be killed:

yes they wouldnt simply glass the planet as that would kill the founder, so they just turn the weapons down a bit, and dont target the city where the founder is. so all the other cities would be relatively levelled.

this leaves the ground troops the sole task of sterilising the city where the founder is located, which required a lot of troops. this would also explain the scene with sisko and ross standing around refusing to drink with martok, this damage was done with smaller weapons, to avoid hurting the founder. the rest of the cities would have been bombarded with weapons from orbit that werent firing at max power.

about whether there was enough ships in orbit, they wouldn't even need ships, they had loads of platforms in orbit, and stations which were probably armed, and probably at least one of those giant dreads. easily enough to decimate a planet, especially since they didnt actually wanna glass it, only kill cardassian son the surface, which is relatively easy for a force capable of destroying a planets crust rather fast.

about the 800 million number, the war was going rather poorly for the dominion near the end, the dominion were putting cardassian troops in the front as cannon fodder in planetary engagements, most of the able population was probably conscribed for military service, going out and fighting and dying. the 800 million number was probably just those killed in the wasting of cardassia prime. and as mimesot said, 800 million wasnt the complete picture.

This is why i am of the opinion that most cardassians on cardassia prime are dead.

but i dont believe that the jemhadar killed the other cardies on their outer planets, so cardassia still exists, just maybe the union would have to sacrifice some planets, consolidate on their inner worlds to make sure they can survive.

posted on June 23rd, 2010, 12:25 pm

I always wondered about that number. As far as I know and understand that planet is approximatly as large as earth. Further it is highly inhabitated, as we mostly see cieties view - on the other hand memory beta offers 8 billion inhabintants. It's said that the number of victims was still rising when 800 million were counted. Even in a critical erspecitve that leads to the assumption that the causalities are quite far from 100%. Another indication that the cardassian economy is crippled, but there is still enough population to rebuild the union. If one takes germany's developement between 1945 and 75 as example it could be possible that cardassias economy is probably reestablished within 30 years too.

I really doubt the population is as big as Earths, considering the problems they have (heavy poverty, hunger and sickness) are the entire reason their Military is in charge. They're quite poor in relation to the Federation, with a very poor economy and less efficient infrastructure than the other races.

A problem with the Germany is a small country, Cardassia is a massive M-Class planet that lost all of its greatest minds (leaders, scientists, ect). That's not counting all the other Cardassian worlds that suffered duting the war and have to be repaired.

30 years would be needed just to rebuild the military to pre-war levels, not counting civilians.

posted on June 23rd, 2010, 6:25 pm

If the Dominion was using orbital turrets as you claim (I still disagree on this point) then that brings up two questions.

1. This was during the final battle... did they just turn their stuff around and open fire on the planet where torpedoes were flying at them? That isn't mentioned anywhere in the show or any interviews with the cast/writers. Seems like it'd be something dramatic and important to show us it if it did happen; in fact none of the characters even mention such a thing.

2. In Dogs of War and the finale ground troops were expressly stated to be the method of levelling cities on Cardassia. Why wouldn't they have used orbital platforms then? There wasn't a battle going on in Dogs of War, and the orbital platforms had nothing else to do... I think the Dominion much preferred doing everything by hand/ground troops when able (perhaps they found it more 'fun'?).

posted on June 23rd, 2010, 6:44 pm

thats a picture of the platforms, plus a large fleet.

1) the fleet retreated and arrived at cardassia BEFORE the allied fleet got there. there was no battle above cardassia, the allied fleet lined up and held off attacking long enough for odo to convince the founder to surrender. so there was no challenge to stop these ships bombarding the planet from orbit before the allied fleet arrived, or when the alied fleet was waiting just outside of range. they didn't show any of the cardies being killed, probably due to time and budget constraints. all we here is the founder ordering the death of all cardies, and weyoun sending some jem'hadar out to help.

2) they mentioned some ground troops were being used, these were probably only used in the capital near where the founder was, so the oribtal bombardment didnt accidentaly kill her. i speculated earlier that the orbital bombardment would occur around the rest of the planet. why would they waste their time killing the cardies the old fashioned way when they could eliminate loads from orbit with ease. about the battle in dogs of war, where damar's attack ship was destroyed, that may have occured a short distance from the planet, out of range from the platforms.

posted on June 23rd, 2010, 7:41 pm

why would they waste their time killing the cardies the old fashioned way when they could eliminate loads from orbit with ease. about the battle in dogs of war, where damar's attack ship was destroyed, that may have occured a short distance from the planet, out of range from the platforms.

Because the Dominion is build on fear. What is better to seed fear. Just turn a planet into dust or kill every man, every woman and every child by hand.
They send out the ground troops and the ground troops did fight with cardassian defenders and killed cardassians. On every planet.
The genocide may not be the target but crippling the cardassians to never forget to rise up against the Dominion.

An orbital bombardment was never mentioned. And Cardassia was damaged but not anihilatet. Like the remaining colonies.
And why they should have build defenseplattforms on every small colonie. Maybee there was a little garnison of Warriors. But why to defend them. Just the shipyards, mines and cloningfacilitys where improtent. And when the main world is the target of the enemy. Why to leave ships behind.

posted on June 23rd, 2010, 7:48 pm

The Dominion had no intention of creating fear, their sole goal was the complete genocide of the Cardassian species becauce they were fed up with them. It also ties in with their bigger goal of abandoning victory in favor of slaughtering as many enemies as they could before their inevitable defeat.

As I said before, Odo mentioned at one point that the planet was being destroyed from orbit.

posted on June 23rd, 2010, 7:48 pm

the founder didn't want to scare the cardies into submission, she knew she had lost the war, and that the cardies had betrayed her, so she ordered them ALL killed, she wanted revenge, not obedience, she wanted them dead, she didn't care how weyoun made them dead, so its reasonable weyoun would do it in the easiest way, which is clobbering them from orbit.

i agree that its unlikely that all the other colonies in the union were as badly hurt as cardassia prime, they couldn't afford turrets/ships at ALL the small worlds. so those would have to be done manually by troops.

EDIT: ninjad by tyler

posted on June 23rd, 2010, 8:13 pm

A problem with the Germany is a small country, Cardassia is a massive M-Class planet that lost all of its greatest minds (leaders, scientists, ect). That's not counting all the other Cardassian worlds that suffered duting the war and have to be repaired.

That's a bit lacking of logic. The time for repair does not scale with the size of the land destroyed. Cardassia may have the size of several hundred germanies, but that does not mean it takes hundret times as long. That would be equal to saying: Evolution from bacteries to a zivilization on earth needed 4 billion years, thus evolution of 100 civilizations in the galaxy needs 400 billion years.