ST Torpedo Discussion

posted on November 18th, 2010, 7:22 am

The Queen (terrible a choice as the thing might have been) had nothing to do with negotiation, it wasn't in the episode. Probably for the best, seeing the Collective realise they were backed into a wall with no option was much better than seeing 'her' in the same spot.

True, on all counts.

The Queen was the Borg version of Jar Jar binks.

posted on November 18th, 2010, 11:30 am

Then why was Kirk sent into the Neutral Zone, an act of war, to steal a cloaking device if it was something that was known of centuries ? Doesnt make sense. At all. Propoganda is one thing, sending your flagship off to commit an act of war is something else. If they had known of the cloak, Kirk would have not been sent off, as he would have been long breifed on it. Not to mention that the Earth Rom war would have made it way too easy to know of, as it would have been observed, unless you're going to tell me they suddenly stopped using the cloak for the war.

Ok, and everything in TOS, TNG, etc. makes perfect sense, too?:)  It's still possible.  If they knew of a cloaking device for centuries, that doesn't mean they wouldn't want to steal it.  Section 31 could have been involved, for all we know.

Why was there not a single mention of nukes then ? You said unless necessary. Wouldnt an attack on earth and word of a larger attack meant to push the species to extinction rate the 'necessary' point of using nukes under your logic ?

The Romulan War, from what I've heard (they were thinking of doing it in season 5) would have been the biggest thing Earth got involved in.  Obviously they didn't need nukes to survive in the first 4 seasons, because we can see that they did indeed survive without them.  But that could have changed.

TOS was canceld despite good ratings as I recall, because the studio simply didnt like it.

Actually, each season of TOS had really bad ratings.  The only reason it lasted as long as it did was its fanbase.  They intended to cancel it after each season.

Enterprise had crap ratings, and only ran as long as it did because it had that star trek logo on the title screen. Not that they used trek on the title screen at first even.......

The first couple of seasons actually had pretty good ratings.

I think this whole thing has gone beyond the scope of the original thread, though.  Obviously, I like Enterprise, and you don't.  Let's agree to disagree.

posted on November 18th, 2010, 1:30 pm

Ok, and everything in TOS, TNG, etc. makes perfect sense, too?:)  It's still possible.  If they knew of a cloaking device for centuries, that doesn't mean they wouldn't want to steal it.  Section 31 could have been involved, for all we know.

Once again, why was the cloak TOTALY UNKNOWN to the Enterprise crew in that case ?

Find a reason that makes sense.

The Romulan War, from what I've heard (they were thinking of doing it in season 5) would have been the biggest thing Earth got involved in.  Obviously they didn't need nukes to survive in the first 4 seasons, because we can see that they did indeed survive without them.  But that could have changed.

EARTH was attacked, and they had word that an even larger attack aimed to destroy all life on the planet was incoming. Holding back weapons makes ZERO sense, period. Explain how it makes sense. I dare you. Cause ya cant.

I think this whole thing has gone beyond the scope of the original thread, though.  Obviously, I like Enterprise, and you don't.  Let's agree to disagree.

Lets find other stuff to argue about so we can make Dom's thread splittey button break 

posted on November 18th, 2010, 1:47 pm

i guess it was easier to use old/produce nukes than warheads for photonic torpedoes

posted on November 18th, 2010, 4:01 pm

tokra, this is irelevant, whether u like enterprise or not doesnt change the fact that it's canon, it's canon and there's nothing u can do about it.

I'm not gonna argue about whether ent was good or not as that is purely opinion.  Instead of whining on the internet about it, why dont u go do something constructive.

[Ruanek]

posted on November 18th, 2010, 5:18 pm

Last edited by Ruanek on November 18th, 2010, 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Once again, why was the cloak TOTALY UNKNOWN to the Enterprise crew in that case ?

Find a reason that makes sense.

If the knowledge was surpressed, they wouldn't have found out, especially if Section 31 (once the Federation was created) worked to make sure of that.  If Section 31 was involved, that could explain why even senior starfleet officials didn't know.  Also, Romulan cloaking in this time period probably wasn't as good as it was TOS-era, so it may have been really inefficient for them to use it in normal battles against Earth (hence it isn't widespread knowledge on Earth).

This is only one possible explanation, of course.  There are others; I just don't see the need to post them.

EARTH was attacked, and they had word that an even larger attack aimed to destroy all life on the planet was incoming. Holding back weapons makes ZERO sense, period. Explain how it makes sense. I dare you. Cause ya cant.

I just explained that.  The threat of an attack isn't necessarily as bad as an all-out war against the Romulans.  When Earth was attacked, it wasn't actually that damaging (compared to what it could be).  Plus, it's more likely that Earth would resort to nukes when they were losing a war against an enemy that used them, than pull them out to deal with a supposed larger attack they had heard could happen.

Yeah, my explanations aren't perfect.  But when it comes down to it a lot of Star Trek's explanations (in other series as well as Enterprise) have flaws, but we still love it.

Lets find other stuff to argue about so we can make Dom's thread splittey button break 

Honestly, I enjoy this discussion, but I don't think either of us will change our minds.  As Myles said, I originally posted because Enterprise is canon, regardless of your (or my, or any of our) opinion of it.

posted on November 21st, 2010, 6:14 am

If the knowledge was surpressed, they wouldn't have found out, especially if Section 31 (once the Federation was created) worked to make sure of that.  If Section 31 was involved, that could explain why even senior starfleet officials didn't know.  Also, Romulan cloaking in this time period probably wasn't as good as it was TOS-era, so it may have been really inefficient for them to use it in normal battles against Earth (hence it isn't widespread knowledge on Earth).

The Federation is not the Klingon Empire, or the Roms. It almost never simply suppress information just to suppress it. And when that information is something that could have significant tactical import for their fleet, it would be the height of stupidity to suppress it, especially if you're sending in your flagship to STEAL it, you would want to tell them everything you know about it to make things easier, especially when the enemy allready knows you know it exists.

This is only one possible explanation, of course.  There are others; I just don't see the need to post them.

And it's a paper thin reason that my previous arguements still punch thru.

I just explained that.  The threat of an attack isn't necessarily as bad as an all-out war against the Romulans.  When Earth was attacked, it wasn't actually that damaging (compared to what it could be).  Plus, it's more likely that Earth would resort to nukes when they were losing a war against an enemy that used them, than pull them out to deal with a supposed larger attack they had heard could happen.

The superweapon was a star trek death star. It was designed to destroy earth. The attack on earth killed 7million people, and cut a line from flordia to venuezella. Thats not considerd a threat worthy of nukes ?

Yeah, my explanations aren't perfect.  But when it comes down to it a lot of Star Trek's explanations (in other series as well as Enterprise) have flaws, but we still love it.

Honestly, I enjoy this discussion, but I don't think either of us will change our minds.  As Myles said, I originally posted because Enterprise is canon, regardless of your (or my, or any of our) opinion of it.

All I ask is that you be willing to argue back .

[Ruanek]

posted on November 22nd, 2010, 11:38 am

Last edited by Ruanek on November 22nd, 2010, 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Can you successfully explain how in Star Trek they have warp scale (logarithmic or exponential or whatever) with warp 1 being the speed of light and warp 10 being infinite velocity?  Any kind of mathematical scale with the first part being finite and the second being infinite can't work.  Not everything in Star Trek has a good explanation.


Edit:

The cloaking device seen in Enterprise could have been a Tal Shiar prototype, so the Romulans didn't use it in the war itself.  The Tal Shiar could have worked to surpress the information, too (they could very easily have people high up on Vulcan, and Earth with a bit more difficulty).

Earth wouldn't pull out nukes unless it saw a threat.  They'd pul lthem out if they were losing a war to the nuke-using Romulans, but not when someone tells them Earth will be attacked (in the event that Earth was attacked again, they could have pulled them out).

posted on November 23rd, 2010, 12:49 am

Can you successfully explain how in Star Trek they have warp scale (logarithmic or exponential or whatever) with warp 1 being the speed of light and warp 10 being infinite velocity?  Any kind of mathematical scale with the first part being finite and the second being infinite can't work.  Not everything in Star Trek has a good explanation.

Simple, the only different thing for subspace is that the value of c is higher. Warp1, c, is simply apparently the slowest velocity in which vessels can normaly enter subspace.

It's like a highway, you enter at one speed, and the speed limit is higher. In this case the speed limit is the value of c in subspace.

infinite velocity

The cloaking device seen in Enterprise could have been a Tal Shiar prototype, so the Romulans didn't use it in the war itself.  The Tal Shiar could have worked to surpress the information, too (they could very easily have people high up on Vulcan, and Earth with a bit more difficulty).

Earth wouldn't pull out nukes unless it saw a threat.  They'd pul lthem out if they were losing a war to the nuke-using Romulans, but not when someone tells them Earth will be attacked (in the event that Earth was attacked again, they could have pulled them out).

1- Roms had a cloak. It worked, very well. Why wouldnt they deploy it when they were loosing a war ? And EARTH not Vulcan was in the war. And all of the veterans would have known if a cloak were involved. Too many people would know to suppress that. That'd be like saying the existence of the B-2 bomber was suppressed after Gulf War 2.

2- So they dont use nukes when earth is attacked, millions killed, because its not a threat (sulliban) and WAIT to pull them out until a war with the romulans ........... that doesnt make sense. I'm still waiting on you to explain why they DONT use nukes against the suliban, or even mention them in passing, when the suliban are out to render them extinct, when in the later earth Rom war as mentioned in TOS, it was fought with nukes and lasers.

posted on November 23rd, 2010, 12:57 am

If the Tal Shiar has access to technology, it doesn't necessarily mean the military also does. They tend to be the kind who would keep the best stuff for themselves, forcing the military to have to make their own.

Nukes tend to have some bad side-effects that other weapons don't, which would be worse if they were prematurly detonated by enemy weapons. That's all I can think of, other than Starfleet believed the threat level was too low.

posted on November 23rd, 2010, 1:05 am

You also cant forget the holoship the roms used.

Thats basicly a Ent era ROMULAN version of USS Incursion. Then theres the cloak. The phasers. Etc etc.



As for nukes, photons also have the same issue if detonated too close, it was even mentioned in a TNG episode once.

Plus Photons are MORE powerful than Nukes.

Look at that DS9 episode were the Tal'shir/ObsidianOrder fleet raid what they think is the foudner homeworld. The blasts from the torpedo impacts take up a VERY significant portion of the planets surface,  they steralize a large portion of the planet (40% IIRC) In a matter of seconds.

Simply put, antimatter torps are much more powerful than nukes.

Also, a direct hit wouldnt nessacarily detonate a nuke. A direct hit would ALWAYS detonate a Photon, as  with no magnetic containment it goes boom.

[Ruanek]

posted on November 23rd, 2010, 2:24 am

Last edited by Ruanek on November 23rd, 2010, 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

You're talking about technology around 200 years later and saying it invalidates my argument.  Let me reiterate: that is a long time later.  It doesn't necessarily apply ENT-era.

And I can basically guarantee that the drone ship was Tal Shiar (admittedly without rewatching the episode), and even in the show they had an explanation for why they didn't keep using them.


The Tal Shiar could have pulled the cloak out at some point during the war - if they used it well, there may have been no survivors to talk about it.  But the technology could still have been really limited.  We also don't know if the Romulans even lost that war, if I remember correctly.  They and Earth could have ended the war without a clear winner.  It happens sometimes.


For the nukes - I can think of a lot of reasons not to detonate them right above my home planet.  That doesn't apply to battles in deep space.  Also, we don't know that Earth didn't shoot nukes at the next superweapon to attack Earth (if there even was one) - they could easily have been unprepared and not able to launch them at the time the first one attacked.  And as Tyler said, nukes can be detonated prematurely.  Maybe not every time, but do you want the possibility of it happening when you can also use more conventional weapons and not potentially devastate your own planet?


Edit: Ok, so the Romulan Star Empire apparently did lose to the Earth Alliance (including Vulcan...).  It doesn't really affect my point, though.

posted on November 23rd, 2010, 2:54 am

Can we drop the "everything has to be exactly canon" thing that people keep bringing up.  FFS!  If that's the case, the Defiant should have a "Tribble Transport" special which slowly reduces crew to 0 and has a chance to blow up the ship.  Come on guys!

posted on November 23rd, 2010, 2:57 am

This isn't actually "Everything has to be canon."  It's a discussion about various inconsistencies in canon.  At this point in the thread it has nothing to do with FO.

posted on November 23rd, 2010, 3:16 am

I was responding to the main post of the thread.  And I keep seeing the same "has to be exactly like canon" theme from some people and they don't seem to grasp its a game with balancing issues and checks that need to be in place so one team isn't more op than another.