ST Torpedo Discussion

posted on November 15th, 2010, 8:24 pm

in enterprise era the bop fired green torps
[img width=300]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060909003921/memoryalpha/en/images/a/a2/Klingon_b-o-p_forward_torpedo%2C_Augments.jpg[/img]

as does the raptor
[img width=300]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080906233250/memoryalpha/en/images/5/52/IKS_Somraw_firing_photon_torpedo.jpg[/img]

the movie bop fired green torps, and the shot was reused in edited form in tng
[img width=300]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090610112921/memoryalpha/en/images/9/9b/Klingon_Bird-of-Prey%2C_forward_torpedo.jpg[/img]

the ds9 bop fired aft green torps in way of the warrior


annoyingly chang fired red ones in st6

in VOY: prophecy, the dialogue mentioned disruptors but the vfx showed green torps, kinda like the neggie in way of the warrior. i dont think anything was mentioned in dialogue in way of the warrior, so i prefer to think they were torps fired.

posted on November 16th, 2010, 3:18 am

Enterprise doesn't count
But yeah sounds like the VFX guys need to be either have a fine per glaring error clause in their contract, or have someone sit on them as they work.

In way of the warrior I always found the aft torpedo rather silly, no other BoP has demonstrated that ability.

posted on November 16th, 2010, 11:45 am

A Klingon ship without an aft weapon would be more silly than having one to deal with enemies that get behind them. You normally only see BoP's fire at things in front, though most battle scenes are inside the ship.

posted on November 16th, 2010, 1:00 pm

enterprise does count as evidence of which colour should be picked for klink torps.

An easy explanation can be found for chang having red torps, he wanted to pretend to be the enterprise, so he would need the same colour torps as them, ie red.

posted on November 16th, 2010, 10:28 pm

A Klingon ship without an aft weapon would be more silly than having one to deal with enemies that get behind them. You normally only see BoP's fire at things in front, though most battle scenes are inside the ship.

BoP is 2 foward disruptors on the wings and a torp tube in the nose, it's meant to be their pocket warship, more reliant than most on manuver, with the larger ships having the aft guns.

enterprise does count as evidence of which colour should be picked for klink torps.

Enterprise is not star trek, it is a spinoff, and a very poorly done one.

Example ?

Romulan cloaking devices.

Why was Kirk sent across the neutral zone to steal one if they were such an old item among Romulans ?

Answer: They wernt old, they were a rather new innovation.

Then theres the Romulans in Enterprise having incursion tech.

Enterprise is just a crapfest randompy copy+pasting elements of trek and poorly using them.


Shame too, the cast did a pretty good job considering all of the recycled and copied scripts they had to work with.

posted on November 16th, 2010, 11:21 pm

BoP is 2 foward disruptors on the wings and a torp tube in the nose, it's meant to be their pocket warship, more reliant than most on manuver, with the larger ships having the aft guns.

Small ship, big ship. It makes no difference what the size is, it doesn't make it any wiser to leave the aft undefended when they've shown themselves quite willing to retreat. Klingon ships are also meant to be heavily armed for their size, not to mention that we never got told what the total compliment is and have on-screen evidence showing an aft launcher.

The fact that the most prominent enemy of the Klingons is the Romulans (the sort to sneak up behind you and stab you in the back), makes it especially likely they'd protect the rear. The Klingons are far from stupid enough to do that.

posted on November 16th, 2010, 11:46 pm

Tok'ra: Whether you like it or not, Star Trek: Enterprise is just as canon as every other Star Trek series.  I do agree, though, that they did some things strangely (like the Romulans having cloaking devices) but that doesn't mean there isn't a good explanation somewhere.

Back to the original topic, though - I do think that realistically the BoP would have an aft torpedo launcher.  There is canon evidence for it, and there is no canon directly contradicting it.  BoP's are reliant on maneuver, but in any situation they'd still probably have the rear of the ship facing the enemy, and I can't imagine a Klingon liking the fact that they'd have to wait to open fire.

posted on November 17th, 2010, 4:42 am

Tok'ra: Whether you like it or not, Star Trek: Enterprise is just as canon as every other Star Trek series.  I do agree, though, that they did some things strangely (like the Romulans having cloaking devices) but that doesn't mean there isn't a good explanation somewhere.

So find one other than 'the whole production sucked, aside from good acting, and the mirror universe episode'.

There isnt one. It was a spinoff gone wrong, horribly wrong. Kinda like the JJ movie.

Back to the original topic, though

Isnt that what got this thread started in the first place ?  .

I do think that realistically the BoP would have an aft torpedo launcher.  There is canon evidence for it, and there is no canon directly contradicting it.  BoP's are reliant on maneuver, but in any situation they'd still probably have the rear of the ship facing the enemy, and I can't imagine a Klingon liking the fact that they'd have to wait to open fire.

My view on it is that the BoP may have had aft energy weapons tops, but the ship was more or less a torpedo launcher with a ship built arround it. Look at almost any ship from that era, torpedo tubes are pretty visably marked and the Klingons especily tend to light them up. The visual evidence doesnt support it aside from a single episode in what was likely the same 'oops' VFX moment as with TNG:Damok and the phaser from the torpedo tube.

[Anonymous]

posted on November 17th, 2010, 9:03 am

Last edited by Anonymous on November 17th, 2010, 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tokra, i liked enterprise, many people did, or it wouldnt have got 4 seasons, if u dont like it, tough, go spew your hate somewhere else. Enterprise IS canon, and that isnt gonna change cos u dont like it. So the evidence stands.

Voyager had some real crap too, deuterium rarity, surly aliens beginning with the letter t, seven's tits character, THRESHOLD. But its canon, and i like it despite its faults.

Jj is much joked about, but it was the only way forward for trek. I consider jj trek a separate canon as it has formed its own timeline. Most trek is about roddenberry canon, but jj canon exists too, and nobody can deny that either.

---

EDIT: killed a typo

[Tyler]

posted on November 17th, 2010, 2:05 pm

Last edited by Tyler on November 17th, 2010, 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

My view on it is that the BoP may have had aft energy weapons tops, but the ship was more or less a torpedo launcher with a ship built arround it. Look at almost any ship from that era, torpedo tubes are pretty visably marked and the Klingons especily tend to light them up. The visual evidence doesnt support it aside from a single episode in what was likely the same 'oops' VFX moment as with TNG:Damok and the phaser from the torpedo tube.

Visual like that doesn'twork too well because the ass of a BoP isn't something they tend to show in detail, since it's normally shown attacking things in the front. Visual evidence doesn't disagree with the aft launcher.

It's also a DS9-era refit, while the TMP ones were never attacked from behind.

posted on November 17th, 2010, 10:19 pm

tokra, i liked enterprise, many people did, or it wouldnt have got 4 seasons, if u dont like it, tough, go spew your hate somewhere else. Enterprise IS canon, and that isnt gonna change cos u dont like it. So the evidence stands.

Enterprise was canceled for a reason. The fact that they continually tried to emphasize the whole 'lol were low tech' issue while at the same time having it be higher tech than much from later in trek shows just how poorly they did it. Hell, they had Photons, but the Earth/Rom war was fought with Nukes according to TOS.

Voyager had some real crap too, deuterium rarity, surly aliens beginning with the letter t, seven's tits character, THRESHOLD. But its canon, and i like it despite its faults.

Voyager at least tried to stay true to trek, rather than rewrite stuff to suit their own needs.

Jj is much joked about, but it was the only way forward for trek. I consider jj trek a separate canon as it has formed its own timeline. Most trek is about roddenberry canon, but jj canon exists too, and nobody can deny that either.

That was one of the few things JJ did right, a new timeline. However JJ himself has said he wanted to make trek more like star wars. I guess he liked Jar Jar.

Visual like that doesn'twork too well because the ass of a BoP isn't something they tend to show in detail, since it's normally shown attacking things in the front. Visual evidence doesn't disagree with the aft launcher.

It's also a DS9-era refit, while the TMP ones were never attacked from behind.

Valid point. Plus it could be that only some were refitted, and those being mostly those of experienced commanders or ships intended to do patrols on their own.

posted on November 17th, 2010, 10:41 pm

Enterprise was canceled for a reason. The fact that they continually tried to emphasize the whole 'lol were low tech' issue while at the same time having it be higher tech than much from later in trek shows just how poorly they did it. Hell, they had Photons, but the Earth/Rom war was fought with Nukes according to TOS.

Just because they didn't supply an explanation in the show doesn't mean there was one.  For example, the peace-loving Earth probably wouldn't equip their ships with nuclear weapons (which presumably are more powerful, at least at that point) unless absolutely necessary.  The cloaking could be explained as being a little-used Romulan technology that most people on Earth never heard about because it was kept secret for propaganda.

Enterprise actually had more seasons then the original Star Trek, so I don't think you can make the "it was unpopular so we should ignore it" argument.

Voyager at least tried to stay true to trek, rather than rewrite stuff to suit their own needs.

What about making the Borg weak?  In TNG they're a slow, almost unstoppable force.  In Voyager, they're willing to negotiate.  Voyager actually had two episodes relying on the fact that their sensor range or whatever was a certain distance, but in each episode it was different.  They couldn't even stay consistent with themselves.  (Not that I don't love Voyager - it just has flaws, like all the other series.)

posted on November 17th, 2010, 10:48 pm

Voyager made the Borg weak, but the firepower part of that tends to get exaggerated a bit. The negotiation bit isn't exactly a bad thing, it showed they had some capacity to think (then revert straight back to assimilation when they had the advantage).

posted on November 18th, 2010, 5:05 am

The cloaking could be explained as being a little-used Romulan technology that most people on Earth never heard about because it was kept secret for propaganda.

Then why was Kirk sent into the Neutral Zone, an act of war, to steal a cloaking device if it was something that was known of centuries ? Doesnt make sense. At all. Propoganda is one thing, sending your flagship off to commit an act of war is something else. If they had known of the cloak, Kirk would have not been sent off, as he would have been long breifed on it. Not to mention that the Earth Rom war would have made it way too easy to know of, as it would have been observed, unless you're going to tell me they suddenly stopped using the cloak for the war.

Just because they didn't supply an explanation in the show doesn't mean there was one.  For example, the peace-loving Earth probably wouldn't equip their ships with nuclear weapons (which presumably are more powerful, at least at that point) unless absolutely necessary. 

Why was there not a single mention of nukes then ? You said unless necessary. Wouldnt an attack on earth and word of a larger attack meant to push the species to extinction rate the 'necessary' point of using nukes under your logic ?

It's a shame too, cause I could see Bakula saying 'Mister Reed, Nuke those sons of bitches'.

Enterprise actually had more seasons then the original Star Trek, so I don't think you can make the "it was unpopular so we should ignore it" argument.

TOS was canceld despite good ratings as I recall, because the studio simply didnt like it.

Enterprise had crap ratings, and only ran as long as it did because it had that star trek logo on the title screen. Not that they used trek on the title screen at first even.......

What about making the Borg weak?  In TNG they're a slow, almost unstoppable force.  In Voyager, they're willing to negotiate.

Exactly, they're a slow force. They adapt, but they dont innovate. They simply tend to gobble up anything that starts to get strong enough to have half a prayer of fighting them. The Federation is getting to the point of being strong enough to stand them.

However Im not defending their negotiating, the queen was a horrible idea that should have been left in the movies.

Voyager actually had two episodes relying on the fact that their sensor range or whatever was a certain distance, but in each episode it was different.  They couldn't even stay consistent with themselves.  (Not that I don't love Voyager - it just has flaws, like all the other series.)

They also stated how many photons they had left in multiple episodes, and then shot all of them before the season was up, and somehow would still have more, with no mention of replicating more casings.




As for Voyager, it had it's flaws, but at least they were off in the delta quadrant, not trying to ignore TOS.

As for Enterprise, the cast did a great job, the opening title was great, and the mirror universe episode makes me cry, because it shows just how easily JJ could have done his wanabe trek renake, just use the same models and graphics, add lens flare, water, and stir.

posted on November 18th, 2010, 5:19 am

However Im not defending their negotiating, the queen was a horrible idea that should have been left in the movies.

The Queen (terrible a choice as the thing might have been) had nothing to do with negotiation, it wasn't in the episode. Probably for the best, seeing the Collective realise they were backed into a wall with no option was much better than seeing 'her' in the same spot.