ST Torpedo Discussion

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on November 10th, 2010, 1:12 am

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on November 12th, 2010, 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I still dont see why Martok doesnt get photons for his B'rels

He used to command a B'rel with photons, why would he field them without weapons they had for the entire history of the ship prior to that ?

Dom EDIT: split from Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations - The vorcha

posted on November 10th, 2010, 10:02 am

I think it's just a game thing, probably one of the things that comes under Willing Suspension of Disbelief.

posted on November 10th, 2010, 6:10 pm

How about making pulses avatar specific? Martok Officer Vor'cha gets pulses, TaQ'roja stays with Torps(as she seems to be the Torp expert(B'rel, K'Vort, Sang, Chargh), I wonder why she got the KBQ beam and not the Torp drone ). Before people complain about pulses being not very useful when the Vor'cha is on the field: make them a bit stronger than the Torpedoes or give plenty of them to it. We saw Vor'chas firing pulses from the wings as well as from the main weapons section.

Btw the same could work for KTIngas. Instead of the 1damage torp give Martok 2 1damage disruptors  :2guns: 

Pulses stronger than torps 

posted on November 11th, 2010, 8:53 am

Well, you have to balance it after all. The disruptors of a B'rel are stronger than the torpedoes of a K'Tinga already.

posted on November 11th, 2010, 10:00 am

The K't'inga only has Micro-Photons, which have a lower yield than regular Photons. The Vor'cha also has micro-photons, so its pulses being stronger than the torps isn't that strange.

posted on November 11th, 2010, 5:29 pm

Well, the Sang also has micro photon torpedoes and they are one of the strongest . It's hard to find a solution that has sense. Btw I hope the Devs will change the animation of the torps in further patches to see a difference between the torpedoestypes. It seems strange that Sangs fire hundreds of torpedoes, each of them larger than the ship... :guns:

posted on November 11th, 2010, 5:33 pm

i think the sangs torps should get a name change to normal photons. just the name.

the vorcha deserves real photons too, just slower firing than the sang. no increase in dps either. maybe it could only get them on veteran then, to make sure its sensible.

the brel and ktinga should keep the micro photon name, and kvort gets standard photons. again no dps changes at all.

posted on November 11th, 2010, 6:00 pm

Canon-wise I don't agree(game-wise it simply doesn't matter). I'd rather describe them as photon torpedoes of type I-III or sth like that. Federation micro torpedoes are 15 cm long and for shuttle crafts and Runabouts only as far as I know. A B'rel is not a Runabout, a K'Tinga once was the glorious battlescruiser of the Klingon empire, Koloth and Kor slaughtered hundreds with them muhaha. 
Well, you could argue hat Klingons don't do half things and their micro photons have the size of Fed real photons, but then it's just wordfetishism.

posted on November 11th, 2010, 6:07 pm

the brel may have one day carried huge full sized launchers, but as torps advanced they probably didnt have enough power to fire the new standard ones, so they were refitted to get smaller ones. perfectly plausible.

i like the name microphotons, i think not all ships should have full sized torps.

posted on November 11th, 2010, 7:51 pm

In fact you don't need that much power to fire torpedoes, you just put some energy into the tube, you could even go without that, just increase speed and throw them out. I'd say Disruptors need more energy. However, one thing comes into my mind: they could use micro photons because of space issues. You can carry more torpedoes if they are smaller. Otherwise: Klingons would load Torps into their crew quarters if the cargo rooms are too small.

posted on November 11th, 2010, 8:00 pm

We don't know how much power the launchers actually need, however just moving foward is unlikely to work unless you use the torps as mines; you'd have to hope they're kind enough to fly into the torpedo.

The Fleet Ops tooltips claim they use the 'power for space' rationalization:

There are also some smaller versions of Photon Torpedoes in use, trading lesser ammunition storage for firepower

[Tok`ra]

posted on November 12th, 2010, 4:38 am

Last edited by Tok`ra on November 12th, 2010, 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

the brel may have one day carried huge full sized launchers, but as torps advanced they probably didnt have enough power to fire the new standard ones, so they were refitted to get smaller ones. perfectly plausible.

They're shooting a missle, hows that take more power ?

The only 'charging' photons need is to be loaded with antimatter when being armed, they're just missles with a high speed impulse engine built into the casing, which also happen to carry antimatter onboard, in a magnetic container designed to fail (at that point.... boom).

As for the micro photons the B'rel has ingame, srsly put them on an excelcior next, same era so it makes sense right ? 

The micro photons make zero sense unless mounted on a ship in such a way as to be fired rapidly for longer periods, or if mounted on a small vessel such as a runabout/shuttle/fighter. Micro photons are what runabouts used in DS9. They're not what the Rotarran used, and there's nothing micro at all about the quantums the defiant used and it's the same size as a BoP.

We don't know how much power the launchers actually need, however just moving foward is unlikely to work unless you use the torps as mines; you'd have to hope they're kind enough to fly into the torpedo.

The torpedo tubes tech hasnt changed drasticly in centuries really, why would a vessel that was basicly built arround a warp core and a photon tube suddenly cease to have that photon tube after 100+ years in use ?

The whole 'power for a missle launch' arguement is rather silly. It's a freaking missle. You fuel it (deuterium) and arm it with explosive (antimatter) and shoot it. The main 'power' needed for the system is likely no more than the power for the antimatter containment pods in the torpedo rooms, for arming new torpedos, and there is proably a railgun type system in the torpedo tube itself.

Both techs would be pretty old at that point, and there would be no need to arm the ship with a shuttles weapon.

The Fleet Ops tooltips claim they use the 'power for space' irationalization:

Indeed

posted on November 12th, 2010, 8:05 am

Yeah, I explained a mthod to use torps as a mine - if you fly with maximum impulse you should be able to hit Starbases and cruisers .
And Tok'ra: you need energy to fire torpedoes, at least if we consider the technical manuals. The torpedo itself only has a system to keep the speed it gets when firing, that way it can even stay on warp.(I don't know what the correct English terms are) However, it's the torpedo tube that gives the torp speed and the targeting scanners that give it- well - a target . You didn't see any engines on the torpedoes, right?

posted on November 12th, 2010, 11:42 am

here we goooooo

They're shooting a missle, hows that take more power ?

The only 'charging' photons need is to be loaded with antimatter when being armed, they're just missles with a high speed impulse engine built into the casing, which also happen to carry antimatter onboard, in a magnetic container designed to fail (at that point.... boom).

As for the micro photons the B'rel has ingame, srsly put them on an excelcior next, same era so it makes sense right ? 

The micro photons make zero sense unless mounted on a ship in such a way as to be fired rapidly for longer periods, or if mounted on a small vessel such as a runabout/shuttle/fighter. Micro photons are what runabouts used in DS9. They're not what the Rotarran used, and there's nothing micro at all about the quantums the defiant used and it's the same size as a BoP.




The torpedo tubes tech hasnt changed drasticly in centuries really, why would a vessel that was basicly built arround a warp core and a photon tube suddenly cease to have that photon tube after 100+ years in use ?

The whole 'power for a missle launch' arguement is rather silly. It's a freaking missle. You fuel it (deuterium) and arm it with explosive (antimatter) and shoot it. The main 'power' needed for the system is likely no more than the power for the antimatter containment pods in the torpedo rooms, for arming new torpedos, and there is proably a railgun type system in the torpedo tube itself.

Both techs would be pretty old at that point, and there would be no need to arm the ship with a shuttles weapon.

Indeed

where is any of your evidence for this?

you say torpedo tubes havnt changed? where do u base this? i say its POSSIBLE they changed, which it certainly is.

you say torpedoes dont need power? evidence? in fact in star trek without power NOTHING seems to work. its perfectly reasonable that torpedo launchers need power, we have absolutely no idea how the torpedo tube works. plus the targetting systems need power too.

lets dissect your torpedo vs missile comparison, current missiles cant be launched without electricity, the silo doors wouldnt even be able to open without power.

for the brel, originally it definitely had full sized torps. but now its small and weak compared to newer designs, kinda like the ktinga, so instead of it having a normal torpedo, lets give it a micro one. maybe the new standard photons got larger, or require more power to fire or some other reason that can be made up. fo is set decades after voyager so the game can deviate from canon.

excel was a battleship when it was designed, and is newer than the brel, and is not that small even now. it deserves normal photons. a candidate for micro photons would be the miranda if it ever re-appeared as an npc unit. if starfleet ever bothered with micros. they may just leave the miranda without torps. dont try weak straw man arguments.

your whole argument seems to come from your hatred of micro photon torpedoes, rather than reason. dont hate on the micro photons

posted on November 12th, 2010, 8:06 pm

The torpedo itself only has a system to keep the speed it gets when firing, that way it can even stay on warp.

You didn't see any engines on the torpedoes, right?

So how do they keep at speed when fired ?

As I recall being mentiond once (forget if it was a tech manual or an episode) torpedos fired at warp had a very small warp drive that burned out very quickly, but that burnout didnt matter as by then it had inpacted or missed, and the regular ones had very small impulse thrusters.

I misspoke in saying no power, I should have said little power.

ST:TMP anyone ? They loose power from the warp core to weapons, and are stuck on course towards that astroid, and cant fire phasers, but they CAN fire photons. That implies that photons require MUCH less power. And as even the FO tooltip says, photons are OLD tech. New changes would mostly be in accuracy and payload but why would those changes be done so they disarm older vessels.

Simply put, it doesnt make sense to do so. If I had a large number of B'rels I'd rather fire older torpedos than have none, because the torpedos main use is giving the vessel a big punch against larger ships.

you say torpedoes dont need power? evidence? in fact in star trek without power NOTHING seems to work. its perfectly reasonable that torpedo launchers need power, we have absolutely no idea how the torpedo tube works. plus the targetting systems need power too.

I never say it doesnt need power, infact I state it does, in mentioning the systems a torpedo room would rely on.

And the targetting systems dont need power even, look at how Chang died, the torpedo was self guided in that case. The torps can be self guided (hell we can do that today, if we can do it IRL, in trek they could do it better) but normally would no doubt mostly rely on the ships sensors to paint a target, the whole 'locking weapons' line thats been used in trek refers to that.

lets dissect your torpedo vs missile comparison, current missiles cant be launched without electricity, the silo doors wouldnt even be able to open without power.

Once again, I never said photons would launch on zero power, infact in my saying that the launcher likley used a railgun type system to fire the torpedo casing I directly imply they DO need SOME power.

But compared to phasers/disruptors, which are directed ENERGY weapons, photon torpedos would require virtualy no power (unlike plasma torpedos, which need to have the plasma generated to give the torpedo an explosive charge).

And missles do launch without electricity. Look at the AT4, no batteries needed.

for the brel, originally it definitely had full sized torps. but now its small and weak compared to newer designs, kinda like the ktinga, so instead of it having a normal torpedo, lets give it a micro one. maybe the new standard photons got larger, or require more power to fire or some other reason that can be made up. fo is set decades after voyager so the game can deviate from canon.

And where does it's size matter for it's torpedo usage ? And what do standard torpedos matter, every torpedo in FO is differnt based on the ship and its rank, therefore there is no such thing as a standard torpedo. if a sovergn, a excelcior 2, and a defiant all have differnt quantum torpedos then why should a B'rel rely on a 'standard' torpedo.

Far easier and more sensable would be to take the tech used in the micro torpedos, and use that to re-design a new torpedo for older ships. It's easier to re-build the ammo, rather than hundreds of vessels. Ammo, you just make it the same size as before and change it's internals, change the ship and you have to tie up docks for extended periods to rebuild a good portion of your fleet.

excel was a battleship when it was designed, and is newer than the brel

And why would the excel not move to micro torps due to its age, having once been a battleship irrelvent.

Afterall, if there was some big change in torpedo tech that means they have to be bigger then wouldnt they have refitted the excelciors to use something else ?

Or are you going to say starfleet just went and incorperated that tech into the torpedos themselves, and built them at the same size ?

If so, why couldnt the Klingons do so with the B'rel ? Infact, it'd make even less sense to use a micro photon on it. Photons destructive power comes from carrying antimatter, with the explosive yield being somewhat affected by the placement of the matter reactant inside of the torpedo to have the most instantaneous detonation of the antimatter inside the warhead, thus the most effect on target.

micro photons seen in DS9 were used on runabouts. Runabouts that had them had a special pod for them and they only had a few even so. Simply put, micros are apparently designed to be used by smaller ships, so I'd assume they have shorter range and are mostly there to give the vessel a heavy punch at short ranges.

The B'rel would have no need of that. Using shuttle weapons on a vessel that carries shuttles simply doesnt make sense.

Torpedo launcher - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki

This has some useful info as well.