No Mayson phaser from the second round of the tourney?!

[Elim]

posted on November 16th, 2010, 6:46 pm

Last edited by Elim on November 16th, 2010, 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Okay. Starting this thread without presentable evidence was probably a mistake. The argument will be suspended, til the beginning of the second round (26th november)
Thats what I offer for everybody:
I will take the time to make replays Mayson vs any other avatar games , so right now looking for some players who are up to play some games that I can record. Take the chance all phaser turret haters  , I want to do at least 4-5 really good replays.

posted on November 16th, 2010, 7:18 pm

None of the Mayson players are even using the Nova or Norway anyway 

i used norway with galaxy spam strat to beat the crap out of mort with his spammy dominion ships! D:

posted on November 16th, 2010, 8:12 pm

torp turrets are kinda silly, they are so expensive that a ship will nearly always be better, unless u have a really nice choke point to hold.

posted on November 17th, 2010, 1:45 am

Well I would like to point out one thing:  That "testing" the overall strength of an avatar is exceedingly complicated.

   
  Dominus' balance testing games are usually the best way to determine the balance of a strategy or a specific unit, but as for an avatar as a whole it's far more complex an issue than just a unit or two.  Many small things about it come together to create an overall advantage.  It's really up to more common sense to establish that an avatar is clearly the favored in a matchup.


    I think the examples Elim gave of Mayson's strength were a bit peripheral.  Sorry, Elim, but a few Sangs not being able to kill it even after it had 8% shields doesn't say much .  Here's a better notion:

Mayson has:

  Cheap Ships (supply and minerals)
  Highly Defensive Ships (easier to save and hit crit mass)
  Many Defensive Passives > Offensive Passives (Defensives trump Offensives)
  Free Warpins (Able to attack with station-killing power anywhere)
 
  All of these things Risner also has - except partially her earliest ships are not so easy to keep alive.
  However, Mayson has the ability to safeguard any spot on the map with a single turret.  That prevents harassment until a critical mass has been reached by the aggressors, but this is offset by the fact that Feds can manage a fleet of much larger sizes and strength very quickly.


 
  I know that the idea of banning an avatar for the rest of the tourney is a bit of a big deal, but keep in mind what Mayson USED to be.  There used to be no question whatsoever that Mayson was too powerful.  Looking back on it now it's almost laughable how clear it was.  The difference has most certainly be narrowed, but the smaller benefits still pile up and are capped off by this champion unit in the phaser turret.  Stacking them is easy to do and is not as crippling on the fleet or economy as one might think .  It costs about the same as an Akira and has ENORMOUSLY more deterring power than it does .


    Anyway, I'd like to hear more from the rest of the tourney players on this.  It's easy to sit outside the tournament and say "oh c'mon, just grow some balls", but it's hard to be in it and know you have a 5% chance of winning against it

posted on November 17th, 2010, 1:56 am

Ok after many games oh dealing with the Fedrats, I have to say this. The Feds are NOT overpowered.  :blush: However, they might be imbalanced in some regards. While I agree that yes, it is difficult to stop Mayson and his turrets, I do not think that you should ban them from the tournament. It is a completely valid strategy that has its ups and downs; I mean just attack some place else for heavens sake. Hit them in their weak spot! And if they spam, spam, and spam some more of them, well then you know that they are offensively challenged. Instead of going on suicide missions, why not lay out some traps for their fleets in order to manipulate them with your factions strongest abilities. If you are a cloaking faction, attack one of their fleets with a small task force and try and force them out in the open. If you are dominion, just expand all around them and scout your enemy so you can counter what ships they build. If you are borg, well then just get a beam sphere with regen in order to protect your weaker ships for combat. So instead of complaining and crying about turreting feds, just think a little outside of the turret's range and use some clever strategies. In my opinion, while I admit that I hate a turreting Fed, I dont think that it should be banned from the tournement, but heavily frowned upon instead. You know, a little peer pressure here and there usually does the trick!

posted on November 17th, 2010, 1:59 am

Hmmm, well Mayson has 7 wins out of 9 games.  Both losses were Alpha Line losing to me, and the second time I had to choose Risner because I knew I couldn't manage it a second time.



    So outside of me Mayson is 7 out of 7.  That's not proof of anything, but it's also not irrelevant. 

[Elim]

posted on November 17th, 2010, 2:05 am

Last edited by Elim on November 17th, 2010, 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Well, calm down guys. I kinda feel sorry for  started this thread without at least some replays proving the mayson natsyness. So if you are up to it: Boggz(Mayson) vs Funny(anything else) and I will record.
Time to man up! 

(I already recorded a massacre by Nuke(Mayson) vs Mort(Helev) just messed up with fraps settings, and it recorded my destktop at some parts  , won't happen again! )

posted on November 17th, 2010, 3:32 am

I have some fear in me starting this thread, but "let slip the dogs of war!"  (I really hope that the ppl who said they will support me in this, will not just disappear and let me become piecemealed by the mayson fans) 

So, the recent common experience in the tournament, shows that the intepid/monsoon+warpin+e2 combination backed up with the infamous phaser turret is may be too much to handle. Observed lot of games,  we also ran numerous test (with klingons, dominion, romulans) outside of the tourney. I don't say we tried everything but it really feels like that anybody who pulls this out, has a too significant advantage.
I't looks like that the Mayson player can easily  defend aginst  multi directional attacks, or even aginst fully concentrated attacks with the help of the phaser turrets.

This is my opinion: The general problem that he can easily hang in the game with suffering huge mining losses and also some combat ship losses, and reach a critical unstoppable mass when the game reaches the 18-25 minute mark(practically when the warpin solts got filled). Really feels like that the other factions can't do anything about it.

One more insane example: Last night, friendly test game, Boggz(martok) vs Clintsat(mayson).
3 sangs were poking an unupgraded platform, it had 11% shields left when Clint upgraded it, (so the sangs didn't suffered any damage til the upgrade) BUT, it was enough to completely scare off the sangs, Boggz tried to micro them to minimize the damage, but phew-phew the sangs instantly lost shields, and the phaser turret was still on about 7-8%....  Is this ok?

One more thing: the problem seems to be non-map specific. On the old duel with the scattered (and less )expansions seemd to favor this strat even more.

So there is the rule: No Mayson phaser turret from the second round of the tournament, if you are in love with the high defense Antares yard ships, you can play Mayson, just keep in mind: No phaser turret.

Now, you can kill me! 

Thanks for the tip.  I'll be building more turrets now.

posted on November 17th, 2010, 3:38 am

So I examine the issue of Mayson turrets considering both sides of the issue. Boggz responds that he beat a newer player as mayson with turrets...  :lol: and you say "calm down guys".

Interesting ...

I will take Boggz on but I don't have enough time to play this week. So many tests and projects to due.

posted on November 17th, 2010, 9:34 am

Come now, Funny ....


  Let's not make an issue here about misunderstanding.  A lot of the tourney players are a bit frustrated by the fact that Mayson still feels overpowered.  He's been the most overpowered avatar for a long time - that's a widely accepted view.  3.0.7 was rediculously Mayson-esque .  The advantages now are much more subtle overall, but they add up to make him too strong still.

  The most clear part of that whole is the phaser turret.  Mainly because it's DPS is enormous and it seems to gloat about it's own power by going PEW PEW . 

 
  You're not in the tournament, but if you were I think you might sympathize with this notion more.  It sucks when you can pretty easily tell:  "ok, I either have to play Mayson myself and have a chance or get beaten by the guys who are playing ONLY Mayson".  Not a fun choice

[Alpha Line]

posted on November 17th, 2010, 10:48 am

Last edited by Alpha Line on November 17th, 2010, 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hey Boggz,

all things that i say now are just my own opinion!

As i said before i totally agree with you that the Mayson phaser turret is far too strong and that it should be regulated or perhapes totally banned from the tourney in the next round!!!

But if u wanna ban Mayson from the tourney I wont play a match in the 2nd round (if i get there)...

I dont like Mayson because of his turrets... And i dont like Mayson because of free Warpins...
I like Mayson because of the E2s and his high defence ships which are produced in the small yard!
(The turrets and warpins are a good (unforunately imbalanced) edition, but thats not the reason why i play Mayson!)

And to ban a whole avatar is to ban 10%(!!!) of the game, which we all like to play... Even if I would not support Mayson, that just doesnt sound right... (I hope you understand, what I mean...?)

Btw: You beat me twice, so is that not kind of a proof that even a Mayson player can be beaten??? (And you didnt choose Mayson)

Thx for your answer!

posted on November 17th, 2010, 1:48 pm

even weak players can beat vets with Mayson...

Dont build Phasers and Mayson is almost balanced...

posted on November 17th, 2010, 2:01 pm

It's war, you should do what it takes to win.

posted on November 17th, 2010, 3:10 pm

Both fed avatars get free warps its no different, only advantage i see with mayson is his high def turrents but iv seen the same effect with risner torp turrent, iv noticed that openents when facing mayson always attack the expansion instead of attacking the un defended base mining from the outside which is usually least def.

I i do think that the mayson phaser turrent is a little over powered but if your a cloak race you have a BIG advantage you just need to think and use this advantage instead of using your energy in complaining.

Im pretty sure i beat a mayson guy as romulan by torp rhiening him to death this however was a team game but i still beat him so.

posted on November 17th, 2010, 3:48 pm

It's war, you should do what it takes to win.

Its not war its a game which means that all players should have an equal opportunity to win.

Secondly in order to build the torp turret you must first build the second yard which places it as a more mid game building as opposed to maysons which can be built almost immediately.