Prometheus in FleetOps?

posted on August 29th, 2012, 12:01 am

Yes, let's agree to disagree. You're like Memory Alpha; everything must be explained to the last detail to count and writer intentions mean nothing... no offense.

You got your personal canon policy from them, didn't you?

This is true, i take no offence. creators say some weird stuff outside of the show sometimes. look at the "official" encyclopaedia which had input from the makers, it's full of rubbish. also look at what the designer of the akira wanted it to be, a million torpedo launchers and fighters. basically the fed version of the already ridiculous scimitar. when things actually get changed from raw ideas into an actual TV show, stupid ideas get smoothed out (like the akira, it was never shown to be a ridiculous ship in canon), the original creator of the akira may have wanted the torp spam, but was probably told no by other people working on the show (maybe vfx didn't want to deal with that much weapons fire).

and then comes the problem of where to draw the line. which things do we accept and which do we deny.

i take the definition of canon that is the relevant definition (dictionary.com def 9) of the word "canon" :

the works of an author that have been accepted as authentic

The works are canon, not things the author (in this case creators) said elsewhere. the show is canon, things said outside the show aren't canon.

there is also the problem that if a creator says something outside the show, the fans will expect them to honour it. they can box themselves into a corner, making future writing more difficult as they have to match it to previous things they have said. lets assume the akira was described by its creator before it was seen on screen. then when it appears on screen, either a bunch of torps are missing and fans cry discontinuity, or the entire series' VFX budget is blown on one shot.

now i have my definition of what's canon, there's the matter of what to do with that definition. i don't think all canon things have a right to be in fan works (eg games) and i don't believe that non canon things should be forbidden from fan works. otherwise the romulan fleet wouldn't be very diverse, would it?

posted on August 29th, 2012, 3:44 am

Before I put in my thoughts Ill just say, I read the topic, and skimmed myles post

In terms of deciding what goes in this game as far as what is cannon. I think you have to take what is "cannon" and what would be cool in the game, and figure out something in between, if everything was constrained to being cannon this game might not be as fun, your galaxy class would go to 1% hull and then your enemies ships would all magically explode.

We have all heard of plot armor, the point being realism and star trek the show, dont always meet in the same place, wouldnt make great t.v. neccesarily. Somehow, especially with tng, the status quo had to be restored at the end of the episodes, so any problems had to be solved in a number of ways, this can affect "realism" . As far as this game goes, you can take the basic structure of the show and the various races etc. and then you have to decide if particular details matter, or if you want to put your own spin on it.

posted on August 29th, 2012, 4:32 am

the prommie being canon is no defence for it being in a game.

This is true, but I think the Prometheus is an interesting enough design for it to have a place. Certainly more interesting than the Phalanx.

posted on August 29th, 2012, 10:09 am

the prommie being canon is no defence for it being in a game.

This is true, but I think the Prometheus is an interesting enough design for it to have a place.

that's where everyone has to agree to disagree, any reasons for adding it shouldn't be about canon, they should be like your reason: because of taste, which isn't debatable, we all have our own tastes.

as for the phalanx, i like the idea, but the actual model is in desperate need of replacing.

posted on August 29th, 2012, 12:25 pm

Speaking of the Phalanx, why do some people think replacing it with another ship will fix anything? I don't mean as a matter of preference, because I've seen at least 1 person that thinks replacing the model with another ship would solve it's ingame problems... whatever they are.

If I was in charge of ship lists, it'd have to be kept as 'canon over preference' otherwise every Federation ship would likely be a varient of the Galaxy...

posted on August 30th, 2012, 4:53 am

Part of my dislike of the Phalanx is that it's, well, dull. Build, turn on special, point at enemy, hope you don't have to retreat it as Starfleet decided not to install a phaser that's worth a damn on a battleship.

Additionally, it's pulse weapons means it's aimed more at cleaning up small and medium enemy vessels rather than line-of-battle duties. With the Defiant having a more interesting special, is cheaper, faster, and takes less time to build*, it's not a hard choice to go for a few copies of USS Ben Sisko's Iron Fist.

* You can build 5 Defiants in the time it takes to build 4 Phalanx.

posted on August 30th, 2012, 5:30 am

The model for the Phalanx looks really blocky and low poly compared to the other ships, my favorite model is the Teutoburg which is unfortunate because it is completely useless in combat.

Personally I would love to see the Eximus class. I don't actually know where it came from, probably a book or some other Star Trek game but I remember it being in a mod for Bridge Commander. If I remember it was supposed to be a somewhat large heavily armed cruiser.

Was never a big fan of the Prometheus as splitting a ship up into different components in the middle of combat seems just daft to me and over complicates everything. Instead of the main focus being on the enemy now your focus is somewhat shifted to keeping the other parts protected as well, especially the main section which houses your primary warp drive. The Defiant is a much more well designed warship. It follows the KISS rule. Kee It Simple Stupid.

Definitely need to find a new role for the Teutorburg though as the very slow long range artillery is just utterly useless since the ship is so slow and can be taken out easily. At least the Romulan artillery ships have some punch to them to make up for their low armor and speed. Even making the Teutoburg the new model for the Phalanx would be an improvement.

posted on August 30th, 2012, 12:34 pm

Definitely need to find a new role for the Teutorburg though as the very slow long range artillery is just utterly useless since the ship is so slow and can be taken out easily. At least the Romulan artillery ships have some punch to them to make up for their low armor and speed. Even making the Teutoburg the new model for the Phalanx would be an improvement.

Considering what the devs told about the Teutoburg, I wouldn't bet on them changing its role as the design has a place in FO-lore, like the Okinawa for example. Whatever tweaks and changes are made, the Teutoburg will most likely stay a strategic long-range artillery meant for supporting firepower against battleships, large vessels in general as well as stations. The Teutoburg-model being the new Phalanx-model is quite impossible IMO, the Teutoburg does not even have Phasers (by intent) because it is not build to go anywhere near a battlefield.

posted on August 30th, 2012, 12:41 pm

Yep, the Teutoburg will stay in its role

We will also stick with the Phalanx Design. There will be a new, updated model down the road, as with many old models, but we will stick with the Phalanx.
At the moment, there are no plans to include the Prometheus as a buildable vessel, as it never went into serial production in Fleet Operations lore. I guess it would make a nice event or map ship somewhere in the future

posted on August 30th, 2012, 12:49 pm

Yep, the Teutoburg will stay in its role

We will also stick with the Phalanx Design. There will be a new, updated model down the road, as with many old models, but we will stick with the Phalanx.
At the moment, there are no plans to include the Prometheus as a buildable vessel, as it never went into serial production in Fleet Operations lore. I guess it would make a nice event or map ship somewhere in the future

1. Good to hear that the Phalanx will not leave.

2. Couldn't the Prometheus be something like a flagship for one of the avatar-admirals?

posted on August 30th, 2012, 2:18 pm

Yep, the Teutoburg will stay in its role

We will also stick with the Phalanx Design. There will be a new, updated model down the road, as with many old models, but we will stick with the Phalanx.
At the moment, there are no plans to include the Prometheus as a buildable vessel, as it never went into serial production in Fleet Operations lore. I guess it would make a nice event or map ship somewhere in the future

Hopefully the Teutoburg will become more effective though.

Shame about the Prometheus, I know MVAM is considered dubious (heck I'm not so sure myself, which is why in the past I've suggested other ways to go for its special ability), but it's known that in one possible future the design lasts in service until the 26th century. As for the map object status, well, that's an entirely different subject I'd want to discuss in a dedicated thread.

As for the Phalanx, I hope that you have / will be examining it. I've got the impression that the Magnan Phaser is a Big Thing from the fragments of storyline you have floating around, so it's not surprising it's staying, but please at least think about the auxiliary weapons and its role conflict with the Defiant class.

posted on August 30th, 2012, 2:44 pm

Since I feel duty bound (:P) to defend the besmirched honor of the Phalanx (though she can certainly defend it herself), I must point out a few things:

It doesn't have a role conflict with the Defiant frankly in 326 - that's why you see rushes to the Phalanx, not to the Defiant.

1. It's the only Federation ship with an area damage basic weapon, with an area special which can do huge amounts of damage when researched.

2. It's got the highest overall stats of any Federation vessel.

This is why you see successful rushes to the ship in online multiplayer - because it cleans up crowds of vessels quite quickly, especially those pesky early game ships which accumulate in such large numbers for the vast majority of most games. Precisely the reason why the long ranged Phalanx can do nicely, kiting things out of existence.

Everyone has their pet likes and dislikes of ships, but calling out the Phalanx for a game role is a little peculiar, when it is one of the most used capital ships of FO

posted on August 30th, 2012, 8:16 pm

Ah yep, I just want to add that my post was just on the visual side of life We plan to redo her model, but keeping the current design. The gameplay-design will of course be adjusted to fit with the new version. I actually think she will be even more unique and special

posted on August 31st, 2012, 3:44 am

It doesn't have a role conflict with the Defiant frankly in 326 - that's why you see rushes to the Phalanx, not to the Defiant.

Both of them are designed to primarily beat up on smaller vessels. They have slightly different approaches to it.

1. It's the only Federation ship with an area damage basic weapon, with an area special which can do huge amounts of damage when researched.

As a primarily Fed player, I prefer getting AE damage by ranking up Akiras, and that unique selling point will be devalued in the next version.

2. It's got the highest overall stats of any Federation vessel.

Not quite, Descent has it beat, although Descent is significant biased to Defence. However, you know as well as anyone that raw stats are a distant third on the list of reasons why some ships are more popular, behind passives and specials. If raw stats were the draw you imply it is, the replays would be full of Tavaras and Cubes.

This is why you see successful rushes to the ship in online multiplayer - because it cleans up crowds of vessels quite quickly, especially those pesky early game ships which accumulate in such large numbers for the vast majority of most games. Precisely the reason why the long ranged Phalanx can do nicely, kiting things out of existence.

I have to take your word that these Phalanx rushes happen, because I've watched almost every Fed battle in the video database posted in the last year and not seen one. As it's common enough for you to remark on it being a thing, I'm surprised it's not been in a recorded game. I'm curious though, as I did a little research earlier and added it up, and a Tavara rush appears to take about the same amount of resources (although maybe a little longer for time); do you ever see that happen?

Everyone has their pet likes and dislikes of ships, but calling out the Phalanx for a game role is a little peculiar, when it is one of the most used capital ships of FO

I'm not calling the Phalanx a weak ship, it feels a bit redundant, a plain case of not quite good enough for its position at the top of the Fed's tech tree. And honestly, I started out really liking the paper stats of the Phalanx, but it's never felt like a top performer the times I've built it.

Ah yep, I just want to add that my post was just on the visual side of life We plan to redo her model, but keeping the current design. The gameplay-design will of course be adjusted to fit with the new version. I actually think she will be even more unique and special

I don't have a serious quibble with the aesthetics of the ship, and I hope that one of the gameplay elements you consider changing is giving it a more interesting special than the current deathly dull "more pew pew" one.

posted on August 31st, 2012, 4:25 am

See the reason i started the post is because i personally like the way the prometheus looks.

I will agree with MadHatter though in which the times ive built and used the phalanx i really disliked it. It died very quickly IMO and is uber slow also making it die faster. it is a very powerful ship and i do love its paper stats expecially the veteran status but it was the only 1 of the 8 i could keep alive.

I dont believe that the prome should replace the phalanx because your right it probably would fix our issue.

I do like red eyed ravens idea of it being avatar specific like the romulans and their tavaras or like the dominion and the breen ships.