There Can Only Be One Hyper Arty!

posted on October 23rd, 2010, 3:56 pm

Did you have weapon's upgrades?

posted on October 23rd, 2010, 3:58 pm

Did you have weapon's upgrades?

it's possible the dom player had weapons upgrades, that would tip it over into killing a spectre if the spectre was microd really badly. its also possible it had moqbara being used etc.

posted on October 23rd, 2010, 4:29 pm

I know what I saw and at least 3 Spectres died. About 5-6 had 10% hull, and about 10 lost most shields and had 80% hull.

posted on October 23rd, 2010, 4:36 pm

I know what I saw and at least 3 Spectres died. About 5-6 had 10% hull, and about 10 lost most shields and had 80% hull.

then they probably had weapons upgrades, in which case they deserved to pwn a fleet. they had to buy these upgrades, they deserve the power the upgrade affords. double hsa without upgrades cant kill a single stationary spec.

posted on October 23rd, 2010, 4:56 pm

  No it doesnt deserve to "pwn" a fleet. It's like Cascade Feedback and Sensor Blackout from 3.0.7, and the Norway Plasma Coil of 3.0.5. The Community and the Devs decided that these abilities were way to powerful and so it was reduced in damage and number of ships affected. The Hyperspace Artillery is no different than these abilities other than it takes longer to get, but it's cheaper in the long run. At least Cascade feedback required a bunch of C-11s to do get this kind of result. In a larger game where several large fleets clash at one spot, the team with the arty will always win.

  And about the elimination of small ships, Klingons and Romulans both depend on small weaker ships. The damage of the arty is so severe that all it takes is a few monsoons to finish off a giant fleet of hyperspaced enemy ships. Trust me, from someone who excels at end game tactics, being able to have two artys just isn't balanced.

posted on October 23rd, 2010, 5:06 pm

   No it doesnt deserve to "pwn" a fleet. It's like Cascade Feedback and Sensor Blackout from 3.0.7, and the Norway Plasma Coil of 3.0.5. The Community and the Devs decided that these abilities were way to powerful and so it was reduced in damage and number of ships affected. The Hyperspace Artillery is no different than these abilities other than it takes longer to get, but it's cheaper in the long run. At least Cascade feedback required a bunch of C-11s to do get this kind of result. In a larger game where several large fleets clash at one spot, the team with the arty will always win.

thats a weak argument. cascade feedback, super coil and sensor blackout were available on easy to reach ships with not so costly researches and were op. the community and devs decided they were op. the hsa is vastly different from these, requiring u to make the ketracel research station. then take time building a slow and capped huge thing. u could spam several c11/norway and use their super specials easily. u can only make 1 or 2 hsa.

also it deserves to be made clear that the community and devs have made no decision on hsa. this is your opinion. not everyone agrees with you and boggz on this.

if u actually read my post (to me it seems like you havnt) you will realise even more how weak your comparison to c11/norway/canav is. i said it deserves to pwn under the condition that the weapons upgrade was done. this weapons upgrade cost them money, they must expect to be rewarded for paying this money out. just as u would be rewarded for doing a research/upgrade. double hsa without the weapons upgrade cannot destroy a spec.

posted on October 23rd, 2010, 5:33 pm

I like the Ace-Ventura-example of how it feels like being one-shot killed with HSA-double-whoppers (this always was my favourite scene of that movie followed by the monks celebrating Ace's depart).

To come back to the topic slowly:
My klingon small ships fleets (which are used to be "so easy to micro out of the area") simply looked like that after trying to outmicro attacks with two HSA's :wheelchair:
Why? Not all players do use both HSA at the exact same moment and area. Some people tend to split the attack of both into two seperated shots. It's not THAT hard to avoid a concentrated attack, but a second countdown appearing while the ships are moving to that exact position is just hard to survive. Small ships will get one hit only; but these small ones are dead to it.

I also love how Neb isn't getting what this thread is actually about while claiming he read the original post. Make it so 

As I already told in the very beginning of this thread, I totally agree with Boggz on that for already told reasons (costs of HSA, single-shot firepower x2 for puretech and laughable 20 supplies for such a huge thing moving around with defense value near to 40 while not being as slow as Defenders and Breen-Warships). Just a friendly reminder.

[funnystuffpictures]

posted on October 23rd, 2010, 7:29 pm

Last edited by funnystuffpictures on October 23rd, 2010, 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thats a weak argument. cascade feedback, super coil and sensor blackout were available on easy to reach ships with not so costly researches and were op.

   In my opinion, the Hyperspace artillery is just as deadly as the C-11 Cascade Feedback and Norway Plasma Coil (if not worse) of previous patches for the following reasons. First of all, all three have no limit on the number of ships affected, and can, therefor, kill an unlimited amount of ships. In order to balance the C-11 and Norway specials, the devs added split damage and limited the amount of ships affected. Second, the Hyperspace Artillery damages turrets and stations while Cascade Feedback and Plasma Coil does not.  Third, the range on the Plasma Coil and Cascade Feedback is medium when the Arty has way beyond any other artillery ranged craft in the game. This means that the C-11s has to get into weapons range of the enemy fleet to use its weapon while the arty can sit idly behind enemy lines blasting their miners, ships, and defenses. Finally, the cost between the two strategies is roughly the same if not very close. After doing the math and finding the exact figures, I found these results:

           C-11s (8x) with Cascade Feedback= 3063 dilithium, 2565 tritanium, and 313 supplies.
           
           2 Hyperspace artillery= 4200 dilithium, 1400 tritanium, 40 supplies.

the community and devs decided they were op. the hsa is vastly different from these, requiring u to make the ketracel research station. then take time building a slow and capped huge thing. u could spam several c11/norway and use their super specials easily. u can only make 1 or 2 hsa.

After about eight C-11s, there isn't really much gain in damage dealt. So in a way, building more than that amount would be a waste of resources. Yes the Hyperspace Artillery does require you to build the Ketracel Research Station (and the Large Yard too), but they both have the same result; an incredibly damaged fleet with the click of the button.

also it deserves to be made clear that the community and devs have made no decision on hsa. this is your opinion. not everyone agrees with you and boggz on this.

It also deserves to be said that not everyone necessarily agrees with you and Nebula either, and I don't recall saying that everyone agrees with Boggz and I in the first place.

if u actually read my post (to me it seems like you havnt) you will realise even more how weak your comparison to c11/norway/canav is.

Actually, I did read your post, and I just read it again to be precise, and I still see no basis in fact or reason that makes my comparison to the Arty and unbalanced area of effect weapons of the past weak at all. Moqbara and weapon upgrades can have the same effect on Cascade Feedback as it does on Hyperspace Artilleries.

To come back to the topic slowly:
My klingon small ships fleets (which are used to be "so easy to micro out of the area") simply looked like that after trying to outmicro attacks with two HSA's :wheelchair:
Why? Not all players do use both HSA at the exact same moment and area. Some people tend to split the attack of both into two separated shots. It's not THAT hard to avoid a concentrated attack, but a second countdown appearing while the ships are moving to that exact position is just hard to survive. Small ships will get one hit only; but these small ones are dead to it.

As I already told in the very beginning of this thread, I totally agree with Boggz on that for already told reasons (costs of HSA, single-shot firepower x2 for puretech and laughable 20 supplies for such a huge thing moving around with defense value near to 40 while not being as slow as Defenders and Breen-Warships). Just a friendly reminder.

These are all very valid points that I would gladly add to my thesis.

And Bortas is OP too because it means you can't defend from a massive buildup. And the pink beam of death is too, because it can kill your ships and then you can't defend. And don't forget about Veqlaraghs that can hold you in place long enuff for the main fleet to kill your ships that are needed for defense.
And especially don't forget about how when you spam a ship that is basically perfectly countered by something, then that something kills your ships because they are damaged already, that means the unit that countered is OP.

I’m glad someone mentioned the Bortas. The Bortas, compared to the artillery, is way more expensive and less effective in just about every way conceivable. Not only do you require 1000 di and 2000 tri for research, but you also need 3 shipyards and 3 research stations to even get access to it. Not to mention it has to be right on top of your enemy and has a longer cool down rate than the arty.

I think that the price for HSA should be increased and that their should be a cost associated with firing its weapon.

Any form of nerf, cost increase, or build cap would be greatly appreciated.

So, agree or disagree, I believe that the Hyperspace Artillery need some significant changes and should focus more on weakening (just a little) the enemy fleet instead of just obliterating it.

posted on October 23rd, 2010, 8:08 pm

Add to your thesis whatever you like, if you find valid points you can always quote them.

However;

Any form of nerf, cost increase, or build cap

... was not exactly what Boggz suggested. He suggested only to adjust the cap for both avatars to one HSA. Nerfing it is what other people may or may not want.

To me, a nerf in the ship or the weapon itself wouldn't make sense at all. It is supposed to be a very powerful single-shot weapon, and also it is late-game tech almost on par with the Hyperspace-sensor system. And one HSA still serves its purpose extremely well while not having defensive weapons. only the single blast (which still has a chance to miss or not to kill anything) followed by a cool-down that makes it impossible to spam-shot.

Two of them however:

- as Boggz pointed out, kill whole fleets of even strong ships (or they make sure a bug spam can clean up after successful double-HSA-attack)

- as I pointed out, can be used seperate to force the opponent to move any fleet away when the first warning is projected. and immediately after you notice where your opponents fleet heads to you can start the second countdown and simply let them run into the second shot. Small fleets that aren't moving away in time (which would be hard enough in the heat of the moment) are dead. Bigger ships usually get hit by both hits then. Which works just as fine.

posted on October 23rd, 2010, 8:19 pm

Why has this turned into a "nerf the HSA" thread? 

posted on October 23rd, 2010, 8:21 pm

I think we should nerf the Bortas!!! >:(

posted on October 23rd, 2010, 8:30 pm

It also deserves to be said that not everyone necessarily agrees with you and Nebula either, and I don't recall saying that everyone agrees with Boggz and I in the first place.

i never said they agree with me and neb. i brought up this because you said "the community and devs decided", u didnt say this about this point, but u said it about a direct analogy, without making clear that no consensus has been reached on this topic, so i made it clear.

i disagree with neb's idea of both having a cap of 2. i like the unique way the cap is different.

i did suggest that the hsa lose engines temporarily as it uses the weapon. maybe small costs for the actual weapons shells to make it so that the hsa doesnt get cheaper per shot the more u fire it. i like the idea of a small cost increase for the hsa itself, to make you treasure it more, and use it more tactically. but a large cost increase or nerfing arent necessary. small adjustments work better as u can analyse their effectiveness better. and see where u need to go.

i agree with you that hsa should be slower than assim/breen battle. it just feels like that sort of slow. that wouldnt really affect balance too much as the hsa should be used for tactics and placing well.

Actually, I did read your post, and I just read it again to be precise, and I still see no basis in fact or reason that makes my comparison to the Arty and unbalanced area of effect weapons of the past weak at all. Moqbara and weapon upgrades can have the same effect on Cascade Feedback as it does on Hyperspace Artilleries.

i think your comparison is a weak one because:

c-11 for cascade death: available as your first real ship (after proto), available in unlimited numbers early, spamming them was not too difficult, back then this worked amazing due to the fact that they were obviously bugged, dealing far more damage than they should. destroying entire fleets if you used a few of them together. comparing the hsa to the c11 is not good as they dealt way too much damage because of a bug. the hsa isnt bugged this is a debate about balance.

norway for coil: also available early, i remember the days of mayson starting with norways and warpin spam. then e2 then victory. available in numbers. plasma coil was very op. and it was quite obvious. a different experience from the hsa.

canav for sensor: as before available early for both avatars. clearly way too useful as it blanketed a fleet, keeping its dps lower. again not analogous to hsa.

First of all, all three have no limit on the number of ships affected, and can, therefor, kill an unlimited amount of ships

if u stacked loads of ships on top of eachother with map editor this would be true. but real move orders use the square formation, which means that about 10-20 ships will be in the blast range at the same time. so it cant really get unlimited kills in practice.

I’m glad someone mentioned the Bortas. The Bortas, compared to the artillery, is way more expensive and less effective in just about every way conceivable. Not only do you require 1000 di and 2000 tri for research, but you also need 3 shipyards and 3 research stations to even get access to it. Not to mention it has to be right on top of your enemy and has a longer cool down rate than the arty.

bortas may cost more than hsa but it can advanced cloak. u never see it coming, the hsa gives the 5 second countdown, and i think the red under attack thing happens when you push the button, not when u fire, not sure. no countdown for triple bortas. bortas is built at a yard, the only way to kill it before it's done is to destroy the yard. once it's built it gets cloaked, the hsa has to move around uncloaked. bortas can be recharged by energy givers like norway etc.

bortas, just like hsa is worth the investment.

Any form of nerf, cost increase, or build cap would be greatly appreciated.

So, agree or disagree, I believe that the Hyperspace Artillery need some significant changes and should focus more on weakening (just a little) the enemy fleet instead of just obliterating it.

i dont think it needs significant change. just a little change, to make people think about hsa more than they do now.

double hsa cant kill a spec, test it for yourselves.

that was a spec sitting still at the centre of the blast taking all the damage.

any warbird wont die.

and if people split their hsa blasts and u only dodge 1, then its basically like being hit by only 1. which wont kill cruisers. and if you are scouting properly you will see them building hsa and if u have cloak u can track it, so u can be ready.

@dom: the hsa is polarising, because it is powerful, people get hurt by it fairly, then assume its op and needs super nerf.

in this case the i think hsa could do at most with a small adjustment. with some slight cost increases.

posted on October 23rd, 2010, 8:32 pm

@dom: the hsa is polarising, because it is powerful, people get hurt by it fairly, then assume its op and needs super nerf.

I just find it amusing that the OP got completely derailed in just a post or two 

posted on October 23rd, 2010, 8:53 pm

Boggz complains that two HSAs is one too many while 1 is balanced, I respond saying to nerf it if necessary, but keep 2 of them.
No derailment.

posted on October 23rd, 2010, 10:01 pm

To me a nerf would include capping it to one instead of two.

And Myles, when I said "the community and devs decided" you must have neglected to read the sentence before and after where I was referring to the plasma coil and cascade feedback.

Yes, you may think of cascade feedback as a bad analogy, but that is your opinion. I believe I explained it quite well and if you still don't understand it then its not my fault.