Sovereign Class - Durability Issues

[Anonymous]

posted on May 30th, 2009, 7:47 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on May 30th, 2009, 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The reason the Sovies offence is lower than a Vorcha is balancing. I think the FO team know that it should be stronger, but the game needs to be balanced as well.
Now about comparing the Sovie to Klingon ships. I find it kind of funny, everyone was (and some still are) that Klingons are unbalanced and far weaker than the other races but in the same breath you actually have the face to compare to their stats and say: "See they have bigger offence than our ships ---> buff our ships!"
No one actually takes into account the fact that Klingon defence and system values are absymal, thus making their staying power non-existant. Yeah its nice and dandy to have 50 offence, but with like 36 defence AND short range it kind of makes up for its power, dont you think so

Note that Im not trying to say that Klingons are unbalanced or anything like that, I just feel that Klingons gameplay is completely different than feds, thus comparing the stats of their ships is a stupid idea IMO. Its apples and oranges people, apples and oranges.

come now. while I completely agree that Kling stats are intended to fulfill a distinct role and that the negh comparisons are ridiculous, I hope you are not quoting balance for the fact that the most advanced ship in the fed fleet does not touch a Vorcha.

What balance and where?

Ppl cited the abstract balance to hide their stubbornness the last time, when we spoke about jem'hadar A20 rams, and now we do have a ram that is worth it, and still balance has been respected.

Sov offense, IMO should start at 36, but it should increment more than the other races.

The reason as I have already posted in my thread is that the Sov AND  IN FACT ALL FED SHIPS should gain increases in stats the way the Sabre does - start weak and then top out quicker.

We have seen this in canon - the sao paolo came in as a misconfigured jalopy but was modified and optimized by O'brien to reach DEfiant standards. The defiant too was prepped and propped.
DS9 was too.
Ent 1701 A was too
Ent D was too - in fact we have whole eposides dealing with just the propping.

It IS fed style.

We are not advocating that the ship gain 55 offense or 90 offense.
So i hope this is taken n the proper context - not the current buff up the sov context.
We are talking about it improving stats a bit more, sot hat a double gold sov or any other fed ship has INCREASED from the original base more than any other race's ship would increase. It would not touch the otehr races, as for example a negh starts at 50 and goes up to say 60 at doubel gold.
So a double gold sov at say 50-51 or so would still be less than a negh double gold. But we see that is increased more over the base value than the negh did.

This is merely in line with starfleet engineering. No balance is being affected as the double golds are still differnt, anf the fed ship is still weaker.
We are merely allowing for a more interesting fed style.

The mods can most certainly balance it out - I trust their judgment.

But as i said - Im fine either way. The game is pretty balanced atm. If we want to make certain changes for the feds and rebalance things, it's ok. I am merely venturing ideas.
hopefully the poll will resolve the issue in the other thread, and this redundant Sov issue will be closed - at least till V4

posted on May 30th, 2009, 7:57 pm

I agree with serp.

posted on May 30th, 2009, 8:13 pm

The problem with dishing out too many good stats while gaining experience is, that if you win a battle, you are not only in advance with  ships, but your ships get stronger too. Any battle shifts the advantage towards the winner of a battle, the experience system increases that advantage and thus shortens the game. The winner of a single battle will be able to own the enemy much easier than without the experience stats boost. If you increase that boost, the game will come to an end within even shorter time. The chances for the enemy to recover and get an advantage himself decreases.

(Please take all my statements as probabilistic ones. Chaos evolves exponentially and the growth-exponent is pushed away from 1 by the first inequal combat. The game can still turn as the fluctuations (mistakes of a player, clues, fortune) are bigger than the divergence. In this represpect I expect a game to shorten, when we increase the exponent, because this inequality is reached faster.)

At the moment I feel that the game already decides in it's early stages, followed by a longish cleanup. I would prefer any suggestions that elongate the timeframe, in which a game can stayundecided.

On the other hand one has to say, that the Sovereign is an endgame ship, thus it does most probably not affect the named timeframe, so I shall not care.

posted on May 30th, 2009, 8:31 pm

What about making the experience levels inequal i stats, precisly growing nearly exponentially?

So e.g. the Sovie would gain offensive stats:
36 > 37,2 > 39,6 > 44,4 > 54 (2% primary gain, it could be 3% as well)

The experience points for levelup could be following:
54 > 77 > 123 > 215 (orig.: 54 > 77 > 102 > 128)

This would give you a Sovereign that greatly increses it's values over time, underlining the humanoid crew's capability to lean, as you desire, but will not unbalance the game too much.

posted on May 30th, 2009, 8:34 pm

The problem with dishing out too many good stats while gaining experience is, that if you win a battle, you are not only in advance with  ships, but your ships get stronger too. Any battle shifts the advantage towards the winner of a battle, the experience system increases that advantage and thus shortens the game. The winner of a single battle will be able to own the enemy much easier than without the experience stats boost. If you increase that boost, the game will come to an end within even shorter time. The chances for the enemy to recover and get an advantage himself decreases.

(Please take all my statements as probabilistic ones. Chaos evolves exponentially and the growth-exponent is pushed away from 1 by the first inequal combat. The game can still turn as the fluctuations (mistakes of a player, clues, fortune) are bigger than the divergence. In this represpect I expect a game to shorten, when we increase the exponent, because this inequality is reached faster.)

At the moment I feel that the game already decides in it's early stages, followed by a longish cleanup. I would prefer any suggestions that elongate the timeframe, in which a game can stayundecided.

On the other hand one has to say, that the Sovereign is an endgame ship, thus it does most probably not affect the named timeframe, so I shall not care.

agreed

[Anonymous]

posted on May 30th, 2009, 9:13 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on May 31st, 2009, 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

What about making the experience levels inequal i stats, precisly growing nearly exponentially?

So e.g. the Sovie would gain offensive stats:
36 > 37,2 > 39,6 > 44,4 > 54 (2% primary gain, it could be 3% as well)

The experience points for levelup could be following:
54 > 77 > 123 > 215 (orig.: 54 > 77 > 102 > 128)

This would give you a Sovereign that greatly increses it's values over time, underlining the humanoid crew's capability to lean, as you desire, but will not unbalance the game too much.

sounds good. I like it 

let's see what the rest have to say

posted on May 31st, 2009, 7:42 am

All I was saying is that it is hypocritical of people to whine about Klingons being unbalanced on one hand and then on the other use their ships as an excuse to buff their favorite race. And I believe you would agree with that.

Now about your idea, well it would be better if the low-offence feds would get offence bonuses as they level up, but couldnt u say the same for the defence-low Klingons? Let them get defence bonuses and we'll end up with ships that have similar stats hehe.

Honestly though, I wouldnt have any problems with changing the stat bonuses as fed ships level up, but it still must be balanced as mimesot demonstrated

Also I think the reason the feds have lower offence is indeed balancing, the team wanted to make the feds defence oriented and so they gave them bigger defence. Since they have bigger staying power, it would also be easier to keep your ships from dying, so you'd get a lot of rank bonuses. This was their decision eventhough they must know that fed ships are ofc stronger on the offence as well lol.
Saying that the Sovie cant touch the Vorcha is BS and you know it as well lol, the Vorcha dies very quickly when targeted, the same cant be said about the sovie. Though it offence is a little bigger than the sovies. Also lets not forget that Vorchas are also quite expensive to produce.

I think the easiest way to stop you guys from talking about this for too long is to make one of the avatars give the sovie an offence bonus (like Risner, whom not a lot of people play) so it will make it the best main battleship in the game (if it isnt already) and will give ya'all a little headaches when choosing the avatars

posted on May 31st, 2009, 8:51 am

Risner already gets +5 system value! she also wanted to install a rotary photonic cannon, but sadly starfleet regulations denied that.

we will take a look at the sovy for the larger Federation Redo. As we have more possibilities to balance it then.

posted on May 31st, 2009, 9:17 am

wow did we really dredge up this thread????

I do believe we did! however The Optec has ruled, and the case is closed!

...she also wanted to install a rotary photonic cannon, but sadly starfleet regulations denied that.

i thought a rotary photonic cannon was from the era of the Enterprise series...

posted on May 31st, 2009, 11:00 am

Risner already gets +5 system value! she also wanted to install a rotary photonic cannon, but sadly starfleet regulations denied that.

Yes but thats system value lol, nobody cares for that I think +5 to both offence and system would be a bit better lol (similar to what the Dominion avatar does to the V13 - are those values correct though, it seems a bit weak to me??)

posted on May 31st, 2009, 11:28 am

Risner already gets +5 system value! she also wanted to install a rotary photonic cannon, but sadly starfleet regulations denied that.

we will take a look at the sovy for the larger Federation Redo. As we have more possibilities to balance it then.

, well it would still be canon, ish. 

posted on May 31st, 2009, 10:39 pm

I think someone should let Risner install...oh...starbase weapon systems on her ship.  Let her.  It would increase Klingon enlistment in Starfleet.

posted on June 2nd, 2009, 10:16 pm

Risner already gets +5 system value! she also wanted to install a rotary photonic cannon, but sadly starfleet regulations denied that.

we will take a look at the sovy for the larger Federation Redo. As we have more possibilities to balance it then.

Cool, sounds good.

lol @ rotary phaser cannon.

posted on June 9th, 2009, 8:41 am

wow.............. let my first say i just got back, but ill be leaving soon

however from the short bit i read somone posed a question about why we are alway comparing it to the nevargh.......... i think that was me way back many posts ago, i was comparing costs to power, and i guess ever since then, its always nevargh vs sovy, ( let me tell you tho, a 1 v 1 with sovy and nevargh, nevargh doesnt even get a scratch on her hull ( well she wouldnt if we had scrathces on there hulls in this version) and looses no sheilds) (just disreguard that comment tho, i dont want to get into this)

let me also request what i requested for the galaxy post, (since this keeps poping out)

Mr. Optec may you kindly lay this post to rest finally, and put it in a locked and sealed coffin.


So goodbye sovy post, may you finally die,

it actually took a while to die, i guess it does have some durability, but ill also compare its attack power to the fact this post hurt nobody, .....................lol just some laughs

posted on June 9th, 2009, 2:19 pm

wow.............. let my first say i just got back, but ill be leaving soon

however from the short bit i read somone posed a question about why we are alway comparing it to the nevargh.......... i think that was me way back many posts ago, i was comparing costs to power, and i guess ever since then, its always nevargh vs sovy, ( let me tell you tho, a 1 v 1 with sovy and nevargh, nevargh doesnt even get a scratch on her hull ( well she wouldnt if we had scrathces on there hulls in this version) and looses no sheilds) (just disreguard that comment tho, i dont want to get into this)

let me also request what i requested for the galaxy post, (since this keeps poping out)

Mr. Optec may you kindly lay this post to rest finally, and put it in a locked and sealed coffin.


So goodbye sovy post, may you finally die,

it actually took a while to die, i guess it does have some durability, but ill also compare its attack power to the fact this post hurt nobody, .....................lol just some laughs

*sigh* Going 1 on 1 in a straight up fight with a Klingon ship using nothing but head on tactics....

Thats like a human fighting a Klingon bare handed straight up using nothing but brute strength, no martial arts, no dirty tricks, no tactics.... I wonder who's going to win??

Kill the Neg'vargh's engines on the first pass it attempts to make, continue the pass and use your longer range to your advantage. Keep retreating but keep the fire up using your 360 degree arc phasers. Move in for a pass again (you have more shields and faster recharge on them) overloading his engines once more (obviously quantum torpedoes fire on the pass as well) and retreat. When his shields are down swing about and engage him directly with Quantum torpedo and phaser fire, save an engine kill now in the event of reinforcements or should he attempt to retreat.


The Sovereign is a beast of a ship and true to cannon it can just keep taking it and still punch back. The Sovereign class is a tank in that respect... A tank with an engine overload ability.


A little more firepower would be nice as a Risner upgrade. Would give Risner a true advantage late game with her Akira and Sovereign's for fleet duty. Phalanx's to deal with destroyers and small targets (try bug ramming a phalanx lol!!) and Intrepid on hit and run tactics on buildings.

Throw in your Carneaval's, Remore's and Repair ships and suddenly you've got a dangerous fleet.


Tactics my man. The application of the correct amount of force, in the correct place and, most importantly, at the correct time.