Make canaveral more useful against Leavhals with more speed

posted on October 18th, 2011, 5:16 pm

canavs and warps a counter for scube/probe rush what the hell are you talking about? if you did this you would be dead before you get a ship out, cancas are a level 2 ship and warps take alot longer than it appears in game. scubes and probes are instant your expansion if you went for one is dead, your main base expansion should already be under attack....

Actualy, canavs aren't level 2, Canavs aren't even level 1, they are unlocked when you build science, which means you can almost start production faster, and they're a long ranged ship that has a pulse that does more dmaage to destroyers and small cruisers.

Note: The passive Fast tracking computers, does more dmage to short range, and take less from long range.
Scube is short range.

Read up on the guide before you replay to a post of mine again.

lol,
Ninja'd by funny.

posted on October 18th, 2011, 7:53 pm

Again, I think you guys just need to come to terms with the notion that Canavs are not a bread-and-butter unit made for countering short range vessels.

  They are too expensive to be ships-of-the-line and as such are SUPPORT ships .  They will nicely add long-range damage against short-range vessels and do you a lot of good with it's specials once you get them.

  If you are looking for them to be a hard counter to Leahvals, Scubes, and Kvorts, you will be disappointed.  They perform nicely against those things but are not practical to use solely so use them as backup!

posted on October 18th, 2011, 9:22 pm

Well, maybe some changes for the canav would be usful, but incresing its speed? imagine what that would do to the borg? tht canav warpin hybrid strat is already a very strong counter for the scube probe rush, imagine if your scubes and probes could not outrun the canavs? it would be DEATH!!!!!

Canaverals are 100 speed. Scubes are 140, probes are 120 (not entirely sure on that one.) There is little danger of not being able to run away unless Canavs are boosted to 130.

*Myles contradicting his own post, then stating my opinion is factually incorrect, then something where he apparently hates the intended use of bolding text and provides a completely irrelevant example where formatting is used without purpose*

This matter will not be something I will discuss further, for reasons I think should be pretty obvious from the above.

posted on October 18th, 2011, 9:36 pm

This matter will not be something I will discuss further, for reasons I think should be pretty obvious from the above.

if you are gonna make garbage accusations in your quote you should be prepared to defend them. dont try hit and run. either defend your claims or dont make any.

posted on October 18th, 2011, 9:58 pm

Jesus Christ, you guys ....

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  This is opinion for the most part.  One of you take the high road and choose not to respond to another's inflammatory remark.

posted on October 18th, 2011, 10:31 pm

Canaverals are 100 speed. Scubes are 140, probes are 120 (not entirely sure on that one.) There is little danger of not being able to run away unless Canavs are boosted to 130.

Try using a repair ship. The system value will really help

posted on October 18th, 2011, 10:33 pm

Try using a repair ship. The system value will really help

I am confused. How is a repair ship relevant to what I was talking about?

@Boggz:
I make no promises that I won't remark on Myles' tendency to attempt to keep an argument going forever, or other, even worse, tendencies. They will, however, not be posted in this thread since it would clutter up the area for discussions where people might actually agree on something.

posted on October 18th, 2011, 11:12 pm

@Boggz:
I make no promises that I won't remark on Myles' tendency to attempt to keep an argument going forever, or other, even worse, tendencies. They will, however, not be posted in this thread since it would clutter up the area for discussions where people might actually agree on something.

Yes, I'm aware.  I've given Myles plenty of grief for disecting people's posts and not letting go.  I'm sure he's aware that some people that way .  Let that be the end of it.

  There's no point in pedantic back and forth over something unrelated to the topic.

posted on October 18th, 2011, 11:58 pm

Jesus Christ, you guys ....

Calm down

  This is opinion for the most part.  One of you take the high road and choose not to respond to another's inflammatory remark.

There is an awful lot of testosterone floating here. Experienced the effects myself not too long ago.
Perhaps it is time for a new version.

Either way, the Canaveral is a very useful support ship with specials which can definitely turn the tide of a battle.
It is also long range and good verses small, short ranged vessels. To increase its speed would decrease the odds of vessels to escape that lethal combo. I like/love the big C, but increasing its speed would IMO disrupt balance. Increasing its system value would have the same effect because those lethal special would be ready for use faster.

IF there is to be made any change to the Canaveral then a modest increase in attack or addition of a photon torpedo are options. Raising the attack would only have a small impact since the C is not a primary attack vessel and the torpedo would have limited effect on small vessels and the slow ROF would not affect balance against large vessels.

posted on October 19th, 2011, 12:45 am

The canaveral isn't a counter for the scube, but not because it's bad against them.  The problem is that the borg player can instantly switch to Dodes which will destroy canaverals, while the fed player can't switch up his production as easily.

At the same time, once a fed player has more than 10-15 ships it's almost stupid NOT to build canaverals, as their sensor blackout is one of the best force multipliers in the game.  No fedroll is truly complete without it, and if you consider that you've already gotten SFS on the road to warpins, they're not as expensive to get into.  If you've been mining Di and Tri equally you should have the excess resources to build them with hardly any hit to your other production.

posted on October 19th, 2011, 1:18 am

I am confused. How is a repair ship relevant to what I was talking about?

It will let the canaveral get out

posted on October 19th, 2011, 8:26 am

@neb: it's disrespectful to talk about someone in the third person like you're doing. if you have something to say to me, then say it to me, otherwise dont post inflammatory stuff. you pretend to be taking the moral high road, but really you're just being a different kind of petty. the only way you can have any claim of taking the moral high road would be to stop talking about the disagreement and abandon your claims in reply 32.

about the canav: every person here has given you another way in which canavs are useful. i think it might be time to "let go" and accept that the problem isnt with the canav. if you dont wanna build it, then dont, it's only you who misses out.

so far we've heard 2 pretty obvious ideas to use canav:

1) use its passive to add to a fleet, remembering that when you add a ship with a passive that makes it do more damage to an enemy ship, that you get all the use from each ship's passive immediately. unlike when you add a ship with a defensive passive that only uses its passive when it is shot at. ie if you dont spam canavs and just mix them, you still get the help from their passive.

2) use them as a support ship, sounds rather tautological, but some still ignore it. its a good support ship. for a little effort in clicking you get a wide sensor range around most buildings. and dont ignore sensor blackout, there was a reason everybody used to always attack the canaveral, and why blackout was nerfed to bring it back to balanced. blackout is one of the most useful specials in the game. no need to target it accurately, just fire and forget, then the enemy does less damage. no downsides to that. can cast from range as well.

there is also the boon that you can control tri overflow with canavs and research. the only thing i wouldnt really want to do with canavs is spam them. which is no surprise seeing as they support ships.

posted on October 20th, 2011, 3:52 am

It will let the canaveral get out

Fed without Warpins versus Rom with Leavhals and Griffins is typically a death for Fed. The Rom can counter all small yard ships with that combo. The only chance I see is a canaveral spam but that requires a stable unraidable expansion - not likely...

Feds are quite good at making expansions hard to raid. The real problem for the Feds with using Canaverals is that because the Roms almost always choose when and where battles take place, the Canaveral will usually get killed while far from a yard. That's why I want a slight speed increase.
Monsoons actually counter Griffins to some extent (Monsoons cost half as much, and build slightly slower so you can double yard them, plus proxy torp and monsoons have half the offense but nearly the same defense), just don't bother trying to counter them with Intrepids. Monsoons aren't an excellent counter, but well-timed proxy torps can devastate a ship that tries to cloak out. One guaranteed loss per battle is a very bad thing for Romulans.
Having a better Canaveral might make it more feasible for it to come and help the Monsoons, so the counter is a bit easier to pull off.

posted on October 20th, 2011, 7:37 am

Monsoons die fast to griffins. Experience with these ships and replays demonstrates this. that one proxy torp kill is all you will get for the entire battle. All the griffins have to do is hover around killing anything they can after proxy. killing 2 mons or 1 mon and a couple miners is easy for griffins.

they cost a bit less dil and a lot less tri than leahvals, and their 1 special won't set you back as much as the leahval's. So you can afford the 1 griffin per battle easier than the 1 leahval. That's why mon spam usually beats leahval spam, cos the 1 leahval requires so many kills in return to be fair.

posted on October 20th, 2011, 12:00 pm

In moonson vs laehval is basicly a microwar. Agresive romulan player with a good knowledge how to properly use the laehval first special can do some damage to the fed player early in the game, and snipe a few ships. I saw moonson spam fail a few times against laehvals. Why? Cos in order to expand properly you need a yard at exp and you need science for proxy and decloaking. Engineering and research. That costs a lot of resources, while fast laehval strategy can get out 2 laehval with autorepair extremly fast. Also with the second special on laehval activated, ship can be a bit hard to kill. Proxy is best to snipe small stuff and laehval is med sized. Im not saying that moonson spam will not work, but i will say that its not easy like it sounds.
Another thing is that a smart romulan player can add is a few phase plated rhiens, cos they will tank for laehvals against short ranged moonson. That will force the fed player manually target laehval. It can be done, but more skill for fed. Yes moonson tank rhiens, i know that, this is just to release the presure of the laehval.
Griphins is also a good idea, cos they are med range, full firing arc, can kite a bit. But the special of the griphin is quite good, extra to small, but the more important thing is that it can disable weapons and sensors. Youl see when some proxy torpedoes dont fire cos you dont have weapons, and that griphin manages to cloak out.
Another good thing is the shrike. Although very fragile it has fast tracking computers and does extremly well. Its autoatacked first, and could die fast to proxy but it has max speed and can follow fleeing moonson, and also disables weapons of destroyers. I would recomend 2 phase plated rhiens with shrikes, cos they tank for the shrike. Ofcourse fed in order to counter shrikes and griphins has to go intrepids which will die horibly to laehvals, if they manually target them. Cos moonson tank for intrepids. Shrikes will still do well against inrepids. Shrikes also own norways. Read about their special which nowone uses.
Cos of the laehvals, akiras are not an option although it depends on the numbers, how many laehvlas does he have, compared to number of griphins and other romulan ships If laehvals die before akiras are targeted, they could prove usefull against griphins. Novas should also die to laehvals but there could be a kiting issue. It would be interesting to see griphins against novas. Griphins should win that.
Ofcourse we have a mixed fleet, where player skill is imporant, with a bit of luck.
If fed is going double moonson he will get a surplus of trit if he managed to expand. I would recomend adding a few canverals but when you have enough moonsons, in the meanwhile you research sensor blackout with extra trit. after that you pull out a few canverals. That sensor blackout will greatly help. From my experience if you go canverals without sensor blackout, so that means earlier, they can be manually atacked by romulan fleet, and die fast cos they are too slow to get away. they can die even after sens black but slower and they did their job-used their special.
Another sneaky thing for romulan, is building one or 2 serkas, but not to decloak them at start of battle, but a few seconds later, since they will be autotargeted. Use their max range. We all know how fed small  short range ships can be close to each other especially cos they will be autargeting the same target. That area efect torpedo from the serkas can be devastating against them.
From what ive heard laehval will be changed and will get a different role, maybe even next patch. I will not say the ship is op, but its extremly usefull, especially against feds.
My conclusion is this, smart player will allways try to counter oponent. Thats why i didnt stick only to laehvals vs moonson-canav. Some people will see fed tech tree problems, since romulan only needs yard and first research facility to pull out almost all the ships i wrote about. Feds need a lot more. I skiped some ships like e2 and warp ins.