Generix - once more

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 5:46 pm

Well, Dom I'm not really gonna argue Fed counters too much.

    Drrrr's post is about making the Generix less attractive to prevent spam.  I don't think that's the solution really.  I just think they fulfill too many easy roles for much less the cost than other ships.  Speed is essentially null'd depending on the size of the map you're playing .


  Spectres still occupy a unique ability for Romulans to spam a baseline ship that requres VERY pre-planned and careful countering.  That may be easy for older and stronger players, but I am willing to say outright that newer players can be steamrolled with ease by spec spam simply because it IS really hard to counter .

  It's been adjusted a bit as of 3.1.3 because of the reduced torpedo passive, but I feel that time will show a bit more work needed .  Not everyone is a vet

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 5:55 pm

Funnystuff still controls players with AKira spam - and I see people spam Torpedo Rhienns and other units with ease. Spam will always exist - that shouldn't be a problem, as you have just stated if it is "easy for older and stronger players". It's your job to stop people from getting away with it - simply stopping the ability to make spam means capping all units to a certain amount. You can spam most units in Fleet Ops as you well know - it doesn't mean it is good, and it certainly doesn't mean there aren't readily available counters. You can still spam most medium range units and many other units like Cehlaer (yes even those), T-15, etc. They are all counterable and controllable, all it takes is some planning. I respect that you don't want to argue Fed counters, but if you haven't tested them and say it is a problem, then it's not really fair to argue there is a problem I think.

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 7:54 pm

Frankly my point is that, even if something CAN be stopped when spammed, the solution to stopping them shouldn't be by using a level of skill that only a few possess .


  There are few ships available (especially for Feds) that can effectively put up against massed Specs.  Everything has their drawbacks, of course, but much of what is needed to defeat them with Feds for example is intense micro and skill that many players do not possess.

  Allow me to clarify though: I feel it's rare for that (a strat that seems to be counterable only by very high skill), but the Spec spam is one of them .  I just think that balance should not rely on Skill alone.

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 8:03 pm

Few people used to be able to stop the Dreadnought rush back in 3.0.7 even though every faction had many units that simply obliterated them.

The most readily spammed fed unit - the Intrepid, can go against Specs  . It doesn't counter them, but it won't do poorly nor good either. It's run of the mill  . Not to mention that you too can run away if you are getting hurt.

Not sure about your point of massed specs - anything massed is by definition hard to counter. Massed Cubes anybody? I kid - Spectre's power in 3.1.2 was the Support Refit backing it up. Feds had more trouble in 3.1.2 with Spectre, but they were defeatable. Now it's just that much more easy 

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 8:23 pm

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on July 23rd, 2010, 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The point Boggz makes (which I agree with) is that while you can stop Spectre spam, it's mostly a matter of skill, one of the major things about FO (which I'm sure you know quite well, but seem to be forgetting or ignoring here) is that spams are punished by the counter system so that spamming one unit only will hurt you, not help you. Spectre spam vs. Feds is not punished as nothing is a good counter for it, it depends entirely on your ability to micromanage your vessels.
Making it more about skill is great when players are somewhere near equal skill, but if one player is somewhat less skilled then that player can get easily defeated by Spectre spam despite having good strategy.
This is why I suggested making them weak to pulses, so that at least one Fed ship can beat Spectre spam without requiring better micro than the enemy.

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 8:51 pm

Not sure about your point of massed specs - anything massed is by definition hard to counter. Massed Cubes anybody? I kid - Spectre's power in 3.1.2 was the Support Refit backing it up. Feds had more trouble in 3.1.2 with Spectre, but they were defeatable. Now it's just that much more easy 

  Well, the point is that it doesn't take long for specs to reach a critical point where even a unit that "soft counters" them like the Intrepid can no longer be micro-managed out of combat effectively .  Because the Spec has SUCH a resistance to torps (20% miss + 15% res) it can be micromanaged by cloak-retreat for longer than the Intrepids can.


  I'm not saying it's wildly broken, Dom.  It's much better than it was in 3.1.2.  However, the root of the issue continues to exist and I think it would be wise to give it a bit more thought than I think you are .

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 8:55 pm

Well, that feels like a rather odd statement if you say you haven't tested it - Intrepids take 20% less from pulses and 31% less from the Spectre. If you are awarding micro-points to the Spectre, you should easily do the same for the Intrepid . If you double yard Intrepids, you'll quickly outnumber Spectres, not to mention never having to engage Spectre directly - just run on though the easy-pickings' Romie mining and retreat to repair. You can mass too

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 9:01 pm

Boggz may have forgotten that Feds can build more than one Antares.

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 9:08 pm

Well, that feels like a rather odd statement if you say you haven't tested it

I didn't say I haven't tested it .  I think you assumed that .


  Look, I'm not trying to say it's still broken.  Everyone calm down

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 10:07 pm

The problem with generixes has always been shield recharge.  Once that's gone it will be a different ballgame.  Since the Spectre and the Frigate are "right there" in terms of being very close techwise to the support and together cover a wide range of ships, I can see why it's so attractive.  But from what Optec has said, much of this will change in an upcoming patch, and the problem will be solved.

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 10:16 pm

Oh of course .  We all know by now that the Gens will go bye bye the way that they are in the future.  But until that happens one can't expect people not to be frustrated by it .

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 10:26 pm

Well, right.  But the point of the thread is to make them less attractive, and the Devs have said they already gots a plan that will do that! :detective:

posted on July 24th, 2010, 9:08 am

Generix are good ships, as they are cheap, reliable and have good passives for early game. However, If Rom comes up with slow Generix, send a warpin to their exp. I think Federation can handle anything, while not being OP(at least if there is only 1 per team...). In my opinion Frigates are a bigger problem(not for Fed, though), as you have nothing but small ships early game. The only problem is perhaps shield recharge, but I admit I didn't test it in 3.1.3, yet. Short range of it should decrease it, as you need a bit more micro now.

posted on July 24th, 2010, 10:11 am

2 main romulan directives:

Losses are inacceptabe
Attacks are sneaky

What if shield recharge was removed?

Well, offensive-wise it will get much more difficult to effectively perform a direct fleet attack. The ships have not too great defense values and except the very first shots their offense is not the best either. Cloak and retreat is highly difficult to micro in large engagements as the ships blow off too fast, ergo you have desastrous losses and this is no way to go for a real romulan. Offensive direct engagements will disappar from romulan gameplay, and be superseded by ambushes, so I greatly appreciate abandoning shield recharge for offense.

For defense we again have the same problem with the romulan ships, but there is no way of avoiding large direct fleet engagements. Someone whispered that the devs have a great new role for the support refit, which will probably be THE solution to the defensive problems and even add chance to set up traps which is really romulan. If that solution works out, i see no need for shield recharge anymore to make the romulans survive.

Nevertheless i'd greatly appreciate saving the shield recharge for a costy romulan support-turret.

posted on July 24th, 2010, 10:24 am

Funnystuff still controls players with AKira spam - and I see people spam Torpedo Rhienns and other units with ease. Spam will always exist - that shouldn't be a problem, as you have just stated if it is "easy for older and stronger players". It's your job to stop people from getting away with it - simply stopping the ability to make spam means capping all units to a certain amount. You can spam most units in Fleet Ops as you well know - it doesn't mean it is good, and it certainly doesn't mean there aren't readily available counters. You can still spam most medium range units and many other units like Cehlaer (yes even those), T-15, etc. They are all counterable and controllable, all it takes is some planning. I respect that you don't want to argue Fed counters, but if you haven't tested them and say it is a problem, then it's not really fair to argue there is a problem I think.

Hey I dont spam them! I stop at 8 and then get intrepids, e2s, remores, avalons, defiants, sovs, warpins and phalanxs.