Fed warp in - too many powerful ships too soon?

posted on June 29th, 2009, 2:06 am

You forget that warp in costs 800 dilithium and 400 tritanium . So it isn't exactly free per se

Since I don't have much time right now, I'll just say that maybe we should have a chat over MSN or in game/hamachi one of these days: maybe I can show you/tell you a few tricks to deal with it.

posted on June 29th, 2009, 3:09 am

I'll have more time in the next few days, Klok.  Maybe we can play a few games.  It sounds like you play Dominion, which is great because they're still my favorite race.   In 3.05a they were "Tough to learn, easy to play".  3.0.7 they're more like "Insanely difficult to learn, easier to play".  It took me a while to adjust to the increased costs, but I've got some good tactics that should help against warp in that will be in my Dominion guide that I'll try to upload in the next few days. 

In fact, I'm happy if someone splits their warp in from their main fleet to hit my mining.  It makes them a lot easier to deal with.  The only thing you need to worry about from the feds are Canaverals.  Sensor blackout's diameter is the same as it's long ranged-phaser, and lasts for half a minute.   It decides the engagement and there's no real skill required to use it!   Awesome stuff!!!  

posted on June 29th, 2009, 5:04 am

thanks for your help guys. i really appreciate it. dunno when i got some time on my hands, cause im pretty busy during the next days, but i would like play a round with u guys to tackle this... ..annoyance lol..
maybe its "just not my race" but i love their design and would like to play them

posted on June 29th, 2009, 1:36 pm

Sure, just send us a message of some sort and get on Hamachi/Gamespy

Don't worry, I don't think there is a "my race" really: if you play enough with any of them you'll do fine. I mean, I have a thing for making sneaky strikes and then retreating, but I also happen to enjoy playing Borg... and Dominion...and Federation... you get the idea . Whenever I get bored with playing one faction, I'll switch to the next.

posted on July 3rd, 2009, 8:55 am

IMO this is an issue that can be balanced by elongating the build time of the SFC by eg 60 seconds. 60 seconds is quite much in early game.

maybe this was mentioned (sorry i didnt read the whole post )  but maybe start a higher cooldown and maybe allow a research option for a shorter cooldown as you advance. 

posted on July 3rd, 2009, 10:34 am

I don't see a problem with fed warp-in as it is. But just to throw it in:

What about using something like the collective connections aka priority to limit access to certain ships?
Let's say you are on low priority, so all you can warp in is an Excelsior or an Ambassador. If you are on high priority you will have access to ships like the Galaxy or the Nebula or even experimental ships.
The slots would still be used to limit the total number of warped in vessels.

The effect, additional to the cool down timer, would be, that people would have to wait until they have more "priority" to get better ships warped in.

[tom]

posted on July 3rd, 2009, 12:24 pm

Last edited by tom on July 3rd, 2009, 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i dont know if this is resolved yet and i'm too lazy to check  .
game speed is 4 and the map is "the reef":

fastest i can get warpin is somewhere between 2:50 - 3:00 min mark.

the counter for klingons:
1st worker builds mining station -> mining station -> field research
2nd worker should be send to build yard between ur base and 1st expansion, maybe closer to expansion as its more likely that it will be attacked so: yard -> 1st expansion
as soon as ur yard is build queue 3 brels and expand yard to 2nd level. when 2nd level is complete queue 2 brels then go for k'vorts.
here we r at the 3:00 min mark and u have 5 b'rels, 1st k'vort should just start building and 2nd one should start constructing in just a few sec. focus fire on feds weakest warpin ship. retreat ur brel every time its about to loose shileds or sooner if enemy DPS is high. if ur enemy focus fire ur miners retreat them if u can to repair or if u cant switch them to warships and then repair. once ur k'vorts hit the field the warpin rush is over. send everything u have (5 b'rels & 4-5 k'vorts) to enemy's expansion. time it so shield breaking torpedo is finished when u r there. the end.

the counter for romulans (dominion is similar):
1st worker builds mining station -> mining station -> research station (after 5th rhienn) -> 2nd expansion
2nd worker builds yard near ur base -> mining station between two moons at 1st expansion -> yard at 1st expansion.
u should have 3 rhienn at 3:00 min mark and 2 more coming. as usual focus fire the weakest warpin ship. try too keep ur rhienn at the bottom of ur yard so the route to it is the shortest and the ship doesn't need to turn when u order it to repair. after 5th rhienn build research station and start updating torpedo refit. after the rush finishes send ur fleet to enemy's expansion. the end.

i dont play borg.

the fast warpin delays feds 1st expansion and forces them to go for 1 yard in the early game. if its a rush then i'm more then happy to welcome it with open hands and a warm greeting, if warpin ships r used for defense it allows me to get 2nd expansion faster. the only real problem imo is when fed player masses warpin with canaverals and sabers but thats another story.

posted on July 3rd, 2009, 1:15 pm

I disagree with your advice but I concur with the end result. Warp-in is not overpowered (At the moment, Borg by the way cannot be overpowered by the initial Warp-In).

If you build a second yard so early, and your opponent gets even one steamrunner, you have already lost. For instance, Deimos experienced this with me when we did a 2v1 way back when. He did the same Romulan strategy, and I used Norways to power up my Steamrunners and take out his yard and mining in a few seconds (of course, luck of the draw, I also got a Nebula and a Galaxy). Building one yard is fine, as long as you also have a Romulan turret to help take some shots in my opinion.

Dominion's counter is much simpler. You don't need to deviate from a standard build, as all you need to do is to continue to build Bugs. All Warp-in's die in 1-2 hits from a bug... and with two construction yards, you always outnumber your opponent anyway. Warp-in rushes against the Dominion are suicide and will actually make you lose faster.

[Anonymous]

posted on July 3rd, 2009, 2:08 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on July 3rd, 2009, 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ugh, listen to Dom.  It is very hard to use warp in against Borg in any case.  And he difinitally knows it.  Warpin can seem over powered in the right hands, but so can a saber class.    You just need to know how to counter it. 

Dominion: bug ship suicide

Borg: assimilate. 

Klingon: bop spam, cloak, then attack mining.  No need to bother with the warpin

Romulan:? dunno, I havent played them sence 3.0.6 

Feds: You have to get SFC up faster than your opponent.  To do this build The second reaserch station first, then SFC, then the first.  This is the fastest way.

posted on July 3rd, 2009, 2:25 pm

alright, i tried that... okay, these strats can work, but still, i cant believe that this was intended.

posted on July 3rd, 2009, 2:28 pm

yeah, I have to agree there.  It sucks that one bug can take out a galaxy, but for now, that is how you counter it. *facepalm*

posted on July 3rd, 2009, 2:35 pm

i think its not that bad if the player is not spamming bugs you can shoot them with your other ships before they kill all of your fleet =P

posted on July 3rd, 2009, 4:07 pm

I disagree with your advice but I concur with the end result. Warp-in is not overpowered (At the moment, Borg by the way cannot be overpowered by the initial Warp-In).

If you build a second yard so early, and your opponent gets even one steamrunner, you have already lost.[...]

we r talking about 1st warpin u can get. at 3:00 min mark even if u focus fire the yard with what u get (warpin + 2sabers/1norway) u will only get it if u r lucky. it is still better then loosing mining station and u r still left with a few rhienn to kill ur opponent's mining.

posted on July 3rd, 2009, 4:26 pm

As I see it, you have a 25% chance to get a Steamrunner from two slots independent of one another (you can run the probability calculations yourself if you wish), a 57 % chance to get a Ambassador (which will fairly easily be able to deal with several Rhienns) and a 28.6% chance to get a Galaxy... which will make quick work of Rhienns... so I prefer a way that works almost all the time, rather than one which does not work most of the time. As Mayson I will either have 1 saber and 2 norways to back that up... or 2 sabers and a Canaveral.,.. either way that will mop up Rhienns in decent order--which must stay close to enter the yard--when you have spent that much to build an additional Staryard. As Risner I will have 3 Sabers and a Canaveral or two by the time warp in comes... but that is less of a hastle for the Helev avatar that you are talking about.

posted on July 3rd, 2009, 4:45 pm

As I see it, you have a 25% chance to get a Steamrunner from two slots independent of one another (you can run the probability calculations yourself if you wish), a 57 % chance to get a Ambassador (which will fairly easily be able to deal with several Rhienns) and a 28.6% chance to get a Galaxy... which will make quick work of Rhienns... so I prefer a way that works almost all the time, rather than one which does not work most of the time. As Mayson I will either have 1 saber and 2 norways to back that up... or 2 sabers and a Canaveral.,.. either way that will mop up Rhienns in decent order--which must stay close to enter the yard--when you have spent that much to build an additional Staryard. As Risner I will have 3 Sabers and a Canaveral or two by the time warp in comes... but that is less of a hastle for the Helev avatar that you are talking about.

i dont think u get it. the idea is to repair ur rhienn and for ur opponent to actually fire at them and not ur miners. if u loose even 1 rhienn thats just bad micro as u have a yard right next to where u fight. i'll just show u online and we will get back to it then...