Klingon: Release the Dogs of War!

[godsvoice]

posted on January 12th, 2012, 6:23 pm

Last edited by godsvoice on January 12th, 2012, 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ok. So doesn't work against Romulans. I'm fine with that. I actually don't know romulan setup that well... so.

For feds though, might be a bit different. Feds you build research station and yard. So if you expand right after building di (which I like, I always expand very quickly usually if I can), but with feds you need to get both research and yard up to get chassis 1 up, and it still takes a while to get even 1 intrepid out. I mean, how long did it take for you to get 2 rhienns? At 62 second each, it was probably pretty even. 1 min to get yard up, 2 more to get both rhienns out. At which time it would have been same as two kbeajq. But Klingon player has better opportunity to prevent fed expansion.

On the other hand, even with this strategy, you could conform it differently for a Romulan player. Your scout will know in seconds who the opponent is once he reaches main base. You are committed to building both field yards, But before they finish building, scout will reach enemy base and know who it is. Um for online do you guys know who your opponent is before you start, or do you have to scout it out first? Either way, you will know before building any extensions. If you see romulan, and choose double kbeajq yard, I would also play a bit more defensively. Use first two kbeajq to secure centre di moon, and send other construction ship to horizontal expansion which ever side that is.  Build your expansions, and use first few kbeajqs to secure them. Get miners out to those moons quickly. If attacked by a significant threat, pop miners to help. There might be problems with this too. But I am very fond of getting lots of expansions up, it boosts resource intake. Even if you are attacked, you can afford to lose a bit, because you did so much. But either way, at the moment I'm not invested in the Romulan side of it. But the plan can be altered to be more defensive if need be, I mean there is no harm in doing test runs against other factions. And I don't know, I really think you would need at least a few games of different variations to see how feasible it really is, but at the moment, I don't care, it doesn't work even against rhienn spam fine. Not only that but Romulans give instant access to both rhienns and generix. Feds only get saber need research and chassis to get intrepids. Repeating myself... bla.

For feds, again, I think it would be a different story. Intrepids don't come out like rhienns.

I just wanted players to test it out to see if it works. Mostly as feds though. In the end if it works great, if not, haha, I am stubborn, might just have to tweak things. I'm currently taking the advice, and looking at only queuing up 1 kbeajq in both yards, then building 1 qawduj from star base as my third ship. When resources reaccumulate, I am playing different games, 1 where I go straight for research, the other continue spam kbeajq, or expand. But regardless, i expand to centre moon for sure. It's just maybe my second constructor should immediately expand horizontally, and build research there. Harder to defend, but maybe some better efficiencies that way.

Oh, and did you double yard Rhienns? I think that would really make things harder too. If you can do that resource allowing. ...

posted on January 12th, 2012, 7:32 pm

aye aye aye....

feds are a defensive race, they don't need to attack but as klingon you do.

A decent fed player will double yard intrepids and stick a few turrents up which will certainly make up for the number difference and if the klingon isnt getting enough kills his supplys choke his ship production then you get fed rolled, that and warps also help balance the numbers.

Your whole strat basically relies on sniping a constructor before it can expand and when using a k'beq which take a very long time to build compared to most early ships it just isnt going to work well. Sure an unsuspecting fed player might not anticipate such spam but that doesn't make it a decent strat if your strat relies on them not knowing your going to do that then it wont work more than once maybe twice if your lucky.

Its like the sphere rush tactic is relies on your enemy not knowing your doing that but if they do your dead gg.

Besides this spamming ANY ship in a player vs player is just boring and lame against ai go nuts it cant complain but it doesn't make a good match if you just go into a game and spam a single unit type.

posted on January 12th, 2012, 11:23 pm

Besides this spamming ANY ship in a player vs player is just boring and lame against ai go nuts it cant complain but it doesn't make a good match if you just go into a game and spam a single unit type.

This^^^.

posted on January 12th, 2012, 11:42 pm

Alright alright, I've been tinkering with that aspect anyways.

The only guide strategy outline for building double field yard immediately out of the dock is brel spam. That queues double brel yard (1 unit spam).

Easy enough alteration, build 1 kbeajq extension, and 1 brel expansion. Queue up 1 of each initially. Queue up four topmeys and one qawduj from star base. The di you save on the brel, will require one miner to unload, and tri is not a problem. To get the second kbeajq and brel up again will take a moment. Well the brel is almost immediate.

You have 1 brel and 1 kbeajq at 182 seconds (brel is a little earlier). The qawduj take a while, but at six minutes you will have the following units:

3 brel, 2 kbeajq, 1 Qawduj

This comes at the cost of building di miners at star base for expansion early.

Is this better?

posted on January 13th, 2012, 12:36 am

The only guide strategy outline for building double field yard immediately out of the dock is brel spam. That queues double brel yard (1 unit spam).

Wrong, just because its the only strat in the guide, doesn't mean its the only strat, heck, phalanx rush ain't in the guide.

Srats you can do with double field yard vary quite abeit actualy, susa rush, is actualy a very powerful strat, good against station spammers like the feds.

And b'rel spam is tricky right now, B'rels take insane levels of micro to get out of combat, and unless your facing rehinn spam, its not a good idea to spam b'rel.

And btw, did you know a hard core sphere rush can have a 1st sphere up in 5 minutes i think, 6 at most, i have to check my numbers on that though.

posted on January 13th, 2012, 4:29 am

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. Am I coming off as weird with this suggestion or something? I must be missing something.

How is the sentence wrong? I said the only strategy outlined in the guide for immediate double field yard is brel... and to the best of my knowledge that is true. I understand online players might play lots of game with immediate double field yard, but it isn't outlined in the guide. How would new players learn about it? At very least, they wouldn't  learn about it through the guide. How would AI players learn about? I happen to love Klingon faction, so I've just played it so much that I've worked this one out over time. I know many more, that I don't bother to suggest, because it would be strictly AI games, but this I thought at least had a decent turnover chance to multiplayer. But if I really wanted to learn Dominion strategy, or Romulan strategy, I naturally turn to the guide for reference to help me out. If there is a playable strategy that is very fast, and convenient, but not mentioned in the guide but played all the time... well put it in the guide. It isn't comparable to a Phalanx rush, which probably isn't practical.

In fact, at first when started playing way back when, I thought it was suggesting that it only works for brels because they are cheap. And I wasn't suggesting the brel spam was good, I completely believe it is tricky and is micro intensive. But to do other things with double field yard would be bad... and then I tried it, and worked things out, and saw you can play a lot of things with double field yards very well. I mean, it was months before I even learned about popping ktingas.. like that it was even possible. Not that the guide doesn't point it out, I'm sure it does, but I think I focussed on feds and klingons right away but you only read so much, I mean whatever time you have.

I play AI. I don't know about all the starts for all the factions, this part wasn't in original post, but my very second post states: "And, I actually don't really know who it's strongest against. I just thought Feds would be sitting ducks. They have no cloak like Romulans, no bigger menacing ships like Borg." I saw there were potential problems in store maybe for romulans and borg. Romulans also have long range starting unit rhienn, which is very fast to build, so its even worse.

I'm not saying the brel spam is the only strat involving double field yard, but it is the only one in the guide... Again, I'm just so confused. Like, if double yarding kbeajqs is so bad, fine go one brel extension one kbeajq. Personally, I really rarely go brel cause that isn't my favourite unit. I never really liked the special either... But if it's so important to have multiple units, and not spam 1 unit... than ok. And getting that qawduj is expensive in my view for this strategy, but I'm open to it. And tada, you can have qawduj, brels, kbeajqs, scouts, a whole bunch of units, but even ktingas could come in, although it would be later.

I don't even know anymore. This really didn't seem that complicated. I'm not saying whats been done, I'm talking about what is shown in the guide for all to see.

[godsvoice]

posted on January 13th, 2012, 5:30 am

Last edited by godsvoice on January 13th, 2012, 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Updated:

Starbase:

Miner 1: Di.
Miner 2: Di.
Miner 3: Tri.
Miner 4: Tri.

Qawduj.

Constructors: Both

Field Yard
Mining Station

Field Yards:

Kbeajq Extension
Bird of Prey Extension

Results: (Rough numbers, accuracy may not be 100%

First Brel: 155 seconds
First Kbeajq: 182 seconds
Second Brel: 246 seconds (This brel queues several seconds after qawduj begins)
Qawduj: 290 seconds (Builds immediately after last miner, have the first di miner wait right at the entrance of mining station to begin unloading as soon as mining station finishes)
Second Kbeajq: 320 seconds
Third Brel: 335 seconds:

5: 35 min ~ = 3 Brels, 2 Kbeajq, 1 Qawduj. 1 Brel extension, 1 KBeajq extension, 2 mining stations. No expansions. Begin expansion immediately (you can have constructors out waiting right by di moons at this point, with the ships guarding at whatever expansion you've chosen, or they can be out attacking already). Attack with six above ships, and perhaps scout, or use them to secure the expansion with constructors. Scout should be aware by now of what opponent is doing, expansions etc.

Note: Qawduj builds flawlessly with both initial miners to di moon. Waiting is for second kbeajq, and brels.
Also, the guide states something like 131 seconds for Brel, and 153 seconds for kbeajq. I could not get that quick for mine. Am I missing something? Kbeajq take 3 minutes to build. Brels take 2 and half.

Map: Duel II

posted on January 13th, 2012, 5:38 am

The numbers on the guide are optimal values, which do not consider the time it takes for a constructor to pop out, to build something, how fast you select an avatar, where you decide to place your stations -> they are just the pure build numbers if all the little actions that took time did not occur . The numbers are just meant to provide a universal, standardized system of comparison, rather than a definitive time of when you should have gotten something: it's probably safe to add 10+ seconds as actions do build up, especially if moons are further away etc

posted on January 13th, 2012, 9:39 am

If you really want to get strong ships out quickly, Chargh build in just 71 seconds. They're lousy against small ships (especially Rhienns and Sabers), but their Combat Tractor Beam lets them get kills that other ships would miss. On top of all that, they're fast enough to raid effectively.

posted on January 13th, 2012, 9:46 am

Do I get it right that you want to build 2field yards with two expansions immediately godsvoice? Additional yards are only necessary if you can build out of all of them constantly. Without expanding you'll be lucky to keep up a constant flow of ships out of one of your yards.
I liked your first idea of KBQ spam, I think there are situations where it can work. But there are also easy ways to stop it. That's why we say Fleet Ops is balanced pretty good.
Btw the range of the Rhienns didn't really matter in the game, it was their number and damage. I hope I can find a Fed player during the following days who goes up with an Int spam against me to prove my assumptions. Since the AI doesn't build many Ints I think you clearly underestimate them godsvoice. ADAI reduces the damage by 31%. And KBQ isn't a damage dealer, while Feds have good defence. Against the AI you may get ranks early on which compensate for the little damage - against human players you simply don't get these ranks.
Either way, I'm repeting myself and will report when I tried it out against Feds .

@Redshirt: yeah, Charghs are great. I love it when they instakill a weak shielded monsoon, or S2  .

posted on January 13th, 2012, 10:11 am

They even cross-counter the Intrepid. The Chargh gets pummeled by ADAI (+31%) while the Intrepid gets wrecked by Fast-tracking Computers (+50%).

posted on January 13th, 2012, 10:41 am

...find a Fed player during the following days who goes up with an Int spam against me to prove my assumptions.

Tried it vs Dragonfire.
Double Yarding Intreps doesn't seem to be an option. You got ADAI, ok, but you miss way too much. Plus klingon yards are cheaper, and no such things as engineering + chassis 1 needed. It takes a lot of time till the Intreps are more cost efficient than the klingon kbeq. And even later on, you'll gain the tricobalt that misses as well, while kbeq special always hits.
And in addition to make things worse, you can later on easily go triple yarding with an additional Kvort or Sus'a, or Qaw'Duj from SB.

Could have been the lag ofc, or my non existent duel skills, but just by math plain Intrepid spam won't really counter the kbeq.

posted on January 13th, 2012, 11:52 am

They even cross-counter the Intrepid. The Chargh gets pummeled by ADAI (+31%) while the Intrepid gets wrecked by Fast-tracking Computers (+50%).

windmills adai doesn't work that way.

adai means the intrep takes 31% less damage from the chargh. so the chargh ends up doing just over base damage with each torp that hits. then you take away 20% more for the miss rate.

still the charghs do impressive damage so charghs arent bad against intreps. sangs do base damage -20% for miss rate as well. so it really depends on whether you wanna try use the sang's range or not.

but charghs are amazing once you get combat tractor.

posted on January 13th, 2012, 1:29 pm

Tried it vs Dragonfire.
Double Yarding Intreps doesn't seem to be an option. You got ADAI, ok, but you miss way too much. Plus klingon yards are cheaper, and no such things as engineering + chassis 1 needed. It takes a lot of time till the Intreps are more cost efficient than the klingon kbeq. And even later on, you'll gain the tricobalt that misses as well, while kbeq special always hits.
And in addition to make things worse, you can later on easily go triple yarding with an additional Kvort or Sus'a, or Qaw'Duj from SB.

Could have been the lag ofc, or my non existent duel skills, but just by math plain Intrepid spam won't really counter the kbeq.

You cant really make a judgement on a single match and you need to pit 2 people of equal skill and not to be unkind but dragon is alot better than you. I guarantee his micro management had alot more to do with the victory.

I havnt used chargs in a game through this whole patch, think i might give them a try.

posted on January 13th, 2012, 2:13 pm

We may try it out if you want to. I do the Kbeq only spam, you the Intrep only spam.

I already stated that i don't have any (good) duel skills, where micro obviously matters way more than macro ( ). Being "active" (and more fluent in gameplay) matters as well, and ofc. the different habits in gamestyle.

Anyways, my opinion should be clear: i really doubt plain Intrepid-Counter-Spam works.