Klingon: Release the Dogs of War!

[godsvoice]

posted on January 7th, 2012, 10:04 am

Last edited by godsvoice on January 7th, 2012, 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

An inspirational Story:

Double K'beajq Yard:

Special Notes:

For Which Avatar: Martok
Strongest Against: Federation. Anything Federation.
Up-Time: 182 seconds (2 K'beajq) 3 at 278, 4 at 304.
Tactical Tidbit: Don't be shy, be aggressive! At 182 seconds double K'beajq are top dogs. Go snipe some Fed expansions, miners, or possible construction ships enroute. Don't forget, you will quickly have additional back up.

Initial Build Order:

Queue up Four Topmey Freighters.

First Construction ship begins constructing a field yard on the right of starbase, second construction ship builds a field yard on the left of starbase.

When both yards are complete build k'beajq extension. Queue up several K'beajq each.

The first Topmey send to mine dilithium, the second tritanium. They will both fill cargo bays before refineries are complete.

Once the first construction ship is idle, construct dilithium refinery, second tritanium.

First construction ship is free, send it to expansion. Wait for 3rd and 4th kbeajq to commence build before building an additional dilithium refinery. As soon as possible send two topmey to expansion. Do not build tritanium refinery.

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Tested on Duel II versus Merciless Federation AI. Simply Owns.

Ideally, make expansion the centre di moon. The build can be customizable, make the yards a convenient location towards the moons. Left and right of starbase in Duel II is ideal, as this is right next to the moons for building the refineries.

Elegant in its simplicity. Eventually build a Field Research and research special. Build a third field yard at the centre di moon, with Kbeajq extension.

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Was looking in the guide... there is no double yard K'beajq spam there. I tried to make the description fit the lingo... I dunno how well I did. I would encourage testing it out. I tried to make the up-time as accurate as possible. If someone finds a difference, just post it.

posted on January 7th, 2012, 10:21 am

Double KBQ is not only possible against the AI .
However, against a human Fed you could get easily owned by Intrepid Spam. You don't get these down due to ADAI. KBQ spam is very nice against sabre spam though with either of the Avatars. TaQ'Roja might be even better due to increased damage of the heavy disruptor against destroyers. Additionally with TaQ you could hide some KTingas in the mix.
I haven't tried it yet but I think this strat could also be helpful against Romulans. Leahvals are the answer to KBQ but due to your stronger hull you can snipe them and they can't really snipe you.

If you don't want to have the special in early game you could also start with an early Qaw'Duj and continue with KBQ then. This will also give you a tank against ADAI units.

[godsvoice]

posted on January 7th, 2012, 10:41 am

Last edited by godsvoice on January 7th, 2012, 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Double Kbeajq is 'only' possible against the AI. ... as opposed to is not only possible?

Are you sure? I don't see how a single intrepid is going to beat two k'beajq so early in the game. I'll throw my scout in the mix for good measure. So early game: 2 kbeajq 1 scout, vs 1 intrepid, 1 scout. Also, I will have two more kbeajq out in no time. Whereas you will only have one yard of intrepids. If you go double yard of intrepids... I don't know, can you go double yard intrepids quickly? But that costs you lots of resources. 800 di for two yards. The research station, and chassis one. And the intrepids out of both yards.

Even so, I don't think it is as clear cut as "intrepids trump kbeajq". This is really really quick. You have to build your research station. I won't build mine until later. I think you have much more resources expended than me. I'm sure I could beat intrepids with this. It isn't just the fact that I have 2 kbeajq vs your 1 intrepid. It's that in very short time I have 2 more kbeajq. Four total by roughly 5 min. What can feds build in five min to confront 4 kbeajq?

Can you explain a bit more in detail why intrepids would win this?

Edit: Oh, Taq can't do this so well. Her yards are more expensive I think. This really cuts resources very close. I played the entire game with 2 full di moons, and 1 full tri moon. It's really rough in the beginning, but after a while, when the topmeys are out, and research is up, just building kbeajq out of two or even three yards work perfectly with these three moon combo. Maybe it would be nice for Taq, but with more expensive yards, it would take her longer than martok. Long enough that I think this should be left for Martok. (At least that is my hunch, but I'll try playing this as her too, who knows it might work. You save a bit with the miners sooooo)

And, I actually don't really know who it's strongest against. I just thought Feds would be sitting ducks. They have no cloak like Romulans, no bigger menacing ships like Borg, etc. But yeah, hopefully this works against all of em! lol

posted on January 7th, 2012, 2:32 pm

Double Kbeajq is 'only' possible against the AI. ... as opposed to is not only possible?

Are you sure? I don't see how a single intrepid is going to beat two k'beajq so early in the game. I'll throw my scout in the mix for good measure. So early game: 2 kbeajq 1 scout, vs 1 intrepid, 1 scout. Also, I will have two more kbeajq out in no time. Whereas you will only have one yard of intrepids. If you go double yard of intrepids... I don't know, can you go double yard intrepids quickly? But that costs you lots of resources. 800 di for two yards. The research station, and chassis one. And the intrepids out of both yards.

Even so, I don't think it is as clear cut as "intrepids trump kbeajq". This is really really quick. You have to build your research station. I won't build mine until later. I think you have much more resources expended than me. I'm sure I could beat intrepids with this. It isn't just the fact that I have 2 kbeajq vs your 1 intrepid. It's that in very short time I have 2 more kbeajq. Four total by roughly 5 min. What can feds build in five min to confront 4 kbeajq?

Can you explain a bit more in detail why intrepids would win this?

Edit: Oh, Taq can't do this so well. Her yards are more expensive I think. This really cuts resources very close. I played the entire game with 2 full di moons, and 1 full tri moon. It's really rough in the beginning, but after a while, when the topmeys are out, and research is up, just building kbeajq out of two or even three yards work perfectly with these three moon combo. Maybe it would be nice for Taq, but with more expensive yards, it would take her longer than martok. Long enough that I think this should be left for Martok. (At least that is my hunch, but I'll try playing this as her too, who knows it might work. You save a bit with the miners sooooo)

And, I actually don't really know who it's strongest against. I just thought Feds would be sitting ducks. They have no cloak like Romulans, no bigger menacing ships like Borg, etc. But yeah, hopefully this works against all of em! lol

Intrepids would win this because they take reduced damage from medium ranged units.

I also dont really understand why you bothered to post such a stupid boring strategy in the first place.... step 1 build a k'beq... step 2 build another k'beq step 3 - 4003298309820 build more k'beqs ..... yes well done i see you have thought this through very well.

[Tryptic]

posted on January 7th, 2012, 5:30 pm

Last edited by Tryptic on January 7th, 2012, 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ignore MrXT.  He's on his period.

Actually, it was worded strange but Hope was actually saying that yes, this strategy works against humans as well as the AI.  Although against feds, you will always throw a single Qaw'Duj into the mix to defend your expansion, as they will almost certainly get intrepids.  The Qaw'Duj doesn't do extra damage to them since it's a medium-range support ship, but it will take 60% reduced damage which allows it to stay in the fight almost permanently.

The thing with fighting intrepids is that when the AI is disadvantaged, it will still fight you.  A human will see your 2 KbeajQ and either stay near his starbase, or upgrade a platform somewhere.  You can still press your advantage against his miners, but it will be difficult to kill any intrepids unless they leave his base, and he doesn't need to outmass you.  He just needs to hold his base long enough to get SFC and then the free ships come rolling.

Ironically, I think most players wouldn't be bold enough to go for the center expansion using this strategy, but it's probably the best choice as the opponent is on the defensive and you want to gain a BIG map advantage during this valuable time before he gets SFC.  Although, if you're Martok and can afford it I would recommend a Battle Yard instead of a 3rd yard and start getting Sang/Vorcha to go against his warpins.

posted on January 7th, 2012, 5:54 pm

Are you sure? I don't see how a single intrepid is going to beat two k'beajq so early in the game.

Whereas you will only have one yard of intrepids. If you go double yard of intrepids... I don't know, can you go double yard intrepids quickly? But that costs you lots of resources. 800 di for two yards. The research station, and chassis one. And the intrepids out of both yards.

Can you explain a bit more in detail why intrepids would win this?

You need about a 4-1 KBQ-Intrepid advantage, just to overcome the passive. 

The up-time for a single yard Intrepid is 197 seconds (per the Guide), then 82 seconds for every Intrepid vs 93 seconds for every KBQ.  A decent Fed player can construct double-yards in about 175 seconds with enough resources to begin construction at both yards (795 di, 680 tri).  Then, all the fed player has to do is sit at his main base (or expansion), and cycle his/her ships through the yard as they become damaged, until they have a numbers advantage to roll you.

The difference between a Human and AI, in this regard is that the AI is too stupid to repair it's ships, and will build Sabers & Monsoons early (which the KBQ does quite well against).

Your strategy is fine in my book, just note that it is weak against Intrepid spam....like in the Guide example above.

posted on January 7th, 2012, 6:36 pm

Feds don't always have to go for fast warp in godsvoice . They can easily use strategies like other races, such as double yarding. And if you see a double yard with KBQ part going up it's the easiest way to go, especially since the Klingon pays supplies for his yards and you don't. The Damage output of KBQ is already quite small compared to other Klingon units - against ADAI units such as Intrepid and A20(the reason why I think the strat won't be that good against Dom) it's even less.

I'm curious how good this strat would work against Borg.

[godsvoice]

posted on January 7th, 2012, 6:44 pm

Last edited by godsvoice on January 7th, 2012, 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

@ Hope, sorry, I misread your post.

MrXT you lack imagination. I mostly posted it because of 2 K'beajq with a very fast uptime. And you can use them against any opponent who tries to expand too early. And you can expand yourself quite easily. You can time it so that your constructor has two escorts to the centre moon of Duel II. Then you can attack any expansion under way. Or, since Duel II as a wide initial moon pair, you can attack those. (Did you see the part where it says elegant in its simplicity? I never claimed 1 kbeajq, 2 kbeajq, 3-4 kbeajq was a breakthrough, but it is fast)

@Tryptic, I still don't know if I see the problem. Are we agreeing that they can't expand at all, then? If you don't launch Intrepids against me, then how do you expand? Not only that, but I can force an engagement on your home mining. First I'll use the 2 first K'beajq to check if you've expanded. My scout can go to your home base to see what your construction ships are up to/if they're both there or not. If they are both still at home, I just attack home mining. If one has a phaser platform, I'll attack the other one.

Anyways, I thought it might spark someone's interest. Maybe someone tries it out online, if a video is made, I'll comment on it. If it really doesn't seem like it's worth it... well ok... but I still don't see any problems. It just stops all expansions. Waiting for fed warpins... I dunno. You could launch a direct attack on my expansion, but just in general, I don't see how it just instant wins for you *or makes the fed side beat the klingon side. At best, I'd say it would be fight. Depends on warping too - like what you get. Kbeajq don't exactly have a hard time shooting down e1s, or nebs.

And someone just posted:

@nerodan, ok. so let's assume you do go for double fed yard with intrepids. does this mean you are doing this at the expense of warpins? or can you still get warpins? i'm assuming that it would take you much longer to do it though if you can. I get that a human player will repair ships much quicker, but if I rest four kbeajq on your doorstep, as soon as you do I start shooting miners down.

No point in me arguing, cause if you guys are right... you are right. So then... this is powerful against federation. Anything federation ... except a double intrepid yard spam.

@ Hope 2nd post: Oh I know they don't always go fast warpin, . But in the case of double yarding... I dunno. I instantly double yard at less than a minute in. The fed still needs to build his research and chassis one. I know you still get 1 intrepid by 197, but I dunno... even with a double intrepid yard spam. I think it all depends on what I could do to your mining and construction ships if they try to expand. Because I really think I have a firm advantage early on. And I can force an attack on your home base mining.

I think I'm just getting confused about these options and which ones you can do, and which ones cancel each other out: Warpin, phaser platforms, double intrepid yard. Like I don't have to face all of these do I? You can't afford science and engineering and SFC for warpin, while double yarding, and building platforms. But I dunno, I still think the strat is feasible itself. It only runs into problems when you double yard intrepids. Even then, it depends how well the Klingon player goes after mining. I'm sure they could slow it down.

posted on January 7th, 2012, 6:56 pm

The biggest problem I see with this strat is the small damage of the KBQ. Against a Sabre spam this disadvantage doesn't show itself since Sabres have even less damage output. Against Ints it can become a problem since they do increased damage, get less - while you are trying to get his miners he can put you under serious pressure.
But you are right - someone has to prove our assumptions with a replay .

posted on January 7th, 2012, 9:05 pm

@nerodan, ok. so let's assume you do go for double fed yard with intrepids. does this mean you are doing this at the expense of warpins? or can you still get warpins? i'm assuming that it would take you much longer to do it though if you can.

I thought that was assumed in my post above, but yes...the Fed player would be foregoing SFC for at least 5-10 minutes (depending on battle outcomes).

I get that a human player will repair ships much quicker, but if I rest four kbeajq on your doorstep, as soon as you do I start shooting miners down. 

That's just it....you won't be able to rest them.  A single Intrepid (properly microed) would be able to drop the shields on 2 KBQs, before having to repair itself. 

You may be able to hang around and destroy some miners, but at some point you still have to deal with the combat ships.

[godsvoice]

posted on January 7th, 2012, 9:35 pm

Last edited by godsvoice on January 7th, 2012, 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sorry, I responding to a lot of posts, yes yes, SFC is gone for double intrepid.

Hm. Interesting.

Yeah, dropping the shields isn't a problem if it stuck around long enough for me to destroy it. But then for it to repair and come back out with only my hull is a problem.

Well then I will revise. If I have two kbeajq, I won't engage any intrepids, unless enroute to expansion. I would attack anything that leaves your home base. (Like, the Klingon player has to be willing to lose one of its first kbeajq to get your single intrepid, because then for the next round, Klingon player would get two reinforcements, and you would be back to a single intrepid, or maybe 2 if you get that other yard up. So then it would be three kbeajq vs 2 intrepid ... but i also have ktingas, more on that below)

If you just sat at home, with only home base resources, I would wait for all four of my Kbeajqs to build. Also, if it was very evident that you weren't expanding, then I don't need my own expansion. I would pop three topmey's and send them in. So at some point, it would escalate with my having around 4kbeajq, and 3 ktingas, then I attack. I would rebuild topmeys for my expansion of course.

And on the other hand, destroying your miners is a big problem. How do you maintain a double yard intrepid spam when you can't hold resources, and you have no expansion. While I am comfortably mining away with no threats, if SFC is gone.

Also, as soon as I get my third yard up, which i could halt my yard queue to do, then I would have a repair yard close by to help cycle my own kbeajqs through. (I could just pause things to get the yard up, not build the actual extension until later)

I think it would be an interesting video. Might need both sides to practise their roles a bit.

[Redshirt]

posted on January 7th, 2012, 11:01 pm

Last edited by Redshirt on January 7th, 2012, 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Also worth noting that bugs will eat your K'beajQs alive.

And speaking as a Fed player, taking out my mining wouldn't be so easy. Even if you catch me off-guard, Intrepids are fast enough to clear out your mining as well, leaving us on equal footing; in that scenario, Intrepids win every time. Your best bet would be to move to Qaw'duj from a battle yard if you see Intrepid spam incoming. One might be enough, but if it gets sniped by tricobalt, you're in hot water.

posted on January 8th, 2012, 12:25 am

I stand completely corrected.  I just got PWNed by double yard KBQs...following my strategy above.

gonna need to re-think this.       

[godsvoice]

posted on January 8th, 2012, 2:13 am

Last edited by godsvoice on January 8th, 2012, 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

@Redshirt, for the moment, I just want to demonstrate that Klingons own Federation. Which brings me to your next point. Your intrepids are not going anywhere. If they do I shoot down everyone of your home miners uncontested. Also, my miners can pop to Ktingas and I wouldn't mind those reinforcements from my expansion. As for home sure. Make me pop all my Ktingas. 8 ktingas and four kbeajqs early on... I will not only destroy miners, but refineries and construction ships too and your maybe two intrepids, lucky three if you have em. I can literally be right at your home base. I am up and running at 182, that gives me a 15 second head start to get to your base and start shooting.

Sidenote: You won't have enough interpids to do equal damage to my mining. I've let the AI attack me with intrepids mixed in with either a monsoon or saber. It does not happen quickly (like not them getting to intrepid, but when they have them, shooting down my miners, it's not easy).

Furthermore, where are you getting tricobalt from? I need a better timeframe. But there is no way I see you getting double yards, both research stations up, chassis one, and tricobalt research. Lastly, I really think a third kbeajq yard is best. One, it makes just the initial field yard a good repair zone, but you don't have to upgrade it immediately. But once you do, it's almost continuous spam. 2 of 3 yards will always be building, and 3 yards at time will be too.

@NeroDan, wish i had been first to play double yard kbeajq online, but don't go multi really. I would say more.. but I don't want to say to much about being right just yet... The debate continues for now until feds can find something to challenge.

But anyway, be a nice favour to see a video of this strategy in action. I'd actually like to see the klingon side of it in action. Like the original post says: Federation. Anything Federation. Klingons own them.

If someone does beat this as federation, I would also like to see video of that. There are tweaks I haven't mentioned, but they are sort of in the guide, so.

Who played the double yard Kbeajq, well in any case, whoever tested it, thanks to both them and you nerodan. Only so much I can do with a thread, someone has to experiment with it to show it also.

[Redshirt]

posted on January 8th, 2012, 2:31 am

Last edited by Redshirt on January 8th, 2012, 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

If I stay behind to fight your attack, you lose anyway, because I have yard advantage + passive. In a 1v1 you might recover, but in a team game, we'd be able to seize momentum and take the fight back to you. The tricobalt only comes into the picture later, but even by then, you won't be able to defend your mining kbq vs int.

Granted, this is all hypothetical, but the numbers paint a bleak picture for kbqs in fleet combat away from home.