Klingon: Release the Dogs of War!

posted on January 10th, 2012, 8:45 am

Feds vs k'beq spam = intrepids and warps.

Roms vs k'beq spam = rhiens/lehevals

Borg vs k'beq spam= dodes/spheres

Dom vs k'beq spam = s2

Klingons vs k'beq spam = sangs/vorcha

Some of those aren't really counters, they're rather better spam strategies, especially the S2 one. Bugs would be a much easier strat against KBQ since they have ADAI as well, you don't even need a prototype. S2s counter long range, not medium. Concerning Roms it has to be tested - yes Leahvals do increased damage to medium range - nevertheless it could become interesting if the Klingon invests ressources in his KBQ special. The result could be similar to Monsoon spam vs. Leahvals - In every attack you lose a Leahval instantly through sniping. Furthermore Rhienns aren't that good against KBQ - their special bonus is low and they don't get missed by beams.
Sangs and Vor'cha are real bad choices here. Yes they are useful strategies generally, but not against faster and more KBQs - Sangs will miss them 40% and Vor'cha passive doesn't come into play. As medium range counters K'Vorts would be the answer. And at this point it would be interesting to see if you can pull out enough of them at the early game phase. Dodes are in fact useful due to their bonus against small ships and disabler.

posted on January 10th, 2012, 4:01 pm

Please don't take this as anything but constructive, but that statement comes off as elitist, harsh, and snobby. If I had just joined this forum, and had read some of the recent threads on  the home page, I would be turned off from playing at the heated threads which seemingly frequently turn into name calling and "yelling" back and forth. Usually over minor feature requests or such. Good, helpful threads turn into screaming matches.

I actually don't play online personally due to the tightness (learning curve) of the game, and of the players (tight knit community). I don't want to "noob up" your games. I can't use tunngle, but I could emulate it if I felt the culture here was more open to new players.

I guess what I'm saying, is with that kind of attitude, we may not have many new people visiting that even WANT to play with us. 

I wont take it that way im not an easy person to offend, it wasn't mean to sound elitist altho i don't truly understand this word right now it sounds like a word made up by an ignorant child, I only meant i have alot of experience playing online and he none, he already admitted he doesn't play online yet wouldn't accept that simply spamming a unit without even checking what his opponent is building is going to work out well.... it wont. It might work for AI but not against a real person, a decent player will check what he is building and counter it.

Some of those aren't really counters, they're rather better spam strategies, especially the S2 one. Bugs would be a much easier strat against KBQ since they have ADAI as well, you don't even need a prototype. S2s counter long range, not medium. Concerning Roms it has to be tested - yes Leahvals do increased damage to medium range - nevertheless it could become interesting if the Klingon invests ressources in his KBQ special. The result could be similar to Monsoon spam vs. Leahvals - In every attack you lose a Leahval instantly through sniping. Furthermore Rhienns aren't that good against KBQ - their special bonus is low and they don't get missed by beams.
Sangs and Vor'cha are real bad choices here. Yes they are useful strategies generally, but not against faster and more KBQs - Sangs will miss them 40% and Vor'cha passive doesn't come into play. As medium range counters K'Vorts would be the answer. And at this point it would be interesting to see if you can pull out enough of them at the early game phase. Dodes are in fact useful due to their bonus against small ships and disabler.

Yep your right but i don't play dom alot right now because they are notoriously under powered in this patch especially in 1v1s but i know s2 will come off on top against k'beq because of the speed they build in comparison. I wouldnt choose bugs because these need to be so well micro'ed that if there is any lag you have thrown the game.

As for the leahevals they would most definitely beat k'beq spam i could bet my life on it, their special is so powerful and combined with the increased damage to medium range vessels and you have a recipe for complete annihilation, if they tried to cloak out it would be like shooting at ktinga all you will hear is rank ups rank ups..... and don't forget with the lehevals second special it makes them even stronger. K'beqs are tanks they dont deal that much dps to kill a leheval.. maybe 1 with their special but they are still screwed for sure.

Rhiens have the advantage of range, the phase plates and numbers, they will built faster, they are cheaper and if rhiens are spammed you wont ever suffer from supply problems but the klingon and their slower building k'beqs will.

posted on January 10th, 2012, 10:05 pm

e·lit·ist/iˈlētist/
Noun:
A person who believes that a system or society should be ruled or dominated by an elite.
Adjective:
Favoring, advocating, or restricted to an elite.


Ignorant Child? Third Grade vocabulary...

posted on January 10th, 2012, 10:17 pm

GodsVoice,

I tried your strategy. I have never played the Klingons before. I think it is a useful strategy, the KBQ's have a great hull and are easily savable at 3/4 hull strength.  After the double yard kbq (I build 6) I move on to vorcha vutpa and luspet fleets. Rocks the AI pretty hard, because my hard to kill KBQ's are able to disrupt their mining, and take out their initial sabers and monsoons for some early rankups.

Good one 

posted on January 10th, 2012, 10:19 pm

e·lit·ist/iˈlētist/
Noun:
A person who believes that a system or society should be ruled or dominated by an elite.
Adjective:
Favoring, advocating, or restricted to an elite.

I mean the context of the word not the definition....

I will have to say that all the personal insults and lack of restraint are slowly driving me (and most likely others) away. If the community here keeps lashing out at people in a personal manner, especially if they are not moderated, you may find yourself with a smaller community...

Funny how you can post stuff like this and then contribute towards the personnel insults.

Ignorant Child? Third Grade vocabulary...

I meant the person who first started using it to describe a certain kind of gamer.... like the person who first started using the word noob. Normally this would be the time i drag out the personnel insults but ill drop it since i understand how posts can be misunderstood maybe its time you learned.

posted on January 10th, 2012, 10:35 pm

Yep AI is sitting duck.

If you want, I have tried and it is possible to lower the AI build cost and time and it is still entirely playable. Maybe first take it down to .9, and .9, and see how it goes. At least gives AI a bit of help. Considering its predictable sabre spam is no match for this.

Also, if you do play on bigger maps where you just can't get kbeajqs to AIs home base in time, (i.e. you can't scout all of starting locations on an 8 player map), so this won't work for that. For large maps, I would do some different approaches.

One useful tidbit would be to expand immediately after building mining stations, but don't worry about yards or research stations just yet. Take two constructors (probably best to build 1 or 2 extra constructors) and a scout to your expansion. At the expansion, build 2 mining stations and a yard. AI feds will come at you with sabers. You can easily capture or fend off up to three sabres. Two chor and a scout cycled through the yard will lower sabers shields. Then beam from all three stations, and both chor, and you will quickly capture it. The AI hands it to you on a silver platter. (sadly, this is mainly because those three sabres will keep targeting the weakest ship, even while it goes to the yard and even during its repair time, so the AI attacks a repairing ship hopelessly, while you freely lower their shields in the meantime, but what can you do)

But really focus on the expansions. This little advantage to start will not help you later on when you are facing hoards of akiras and above. Getting upwards of five expansions will definitely help you building a fleet needed to beat AI.

I have determined that a single AI Fed can be beat on any map by the time it reaches Akira (or before) with super aggressiveness. I reserve that for the extremely large maps which include 32 000 k +, but even those normally only just reach eraudi yard, and you can usually win it during e2s and maybe only see one defiant or sovereign.

The real hoards come when you play 2(+) merciless feds. Lots of fun! To date, at least five maps allow Klingon player to beat 3 Feds. Naleri, Battle pit Defense, Blue Amber, and a couple others... a little frontier run I think, and another one... But yeah.

But Ideally, two feds on those above maps, or a fair number of others offers a good game. They can both be merciless, or 1 merciless 1 hard, 2 hard. etc. But better to have two fed ai opponents than 1.

[godsvoice]

posted on January 10th, 2012, 10:55 pm

Last edited by godsvoice on January 11th, 2012, 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sigh, I think you assume to much MrXT.

I never said don't scout. In fact, I explicitly stated send your scout to enemy base to scout. Look to see if his construction ships are there, while sending kbeajq to expansions. If you see two construction ships there, then just send kbeajq to enemy home base.

My strategy is not conditional on my opponent's build order to start, no, but it is open to consideration. I can switch builds if necessary, or pop miners to add greater numbers. I do not wait to make sure building this unit is safe, I just build it. If there's trouble, I'll adjust. To assume you should always wait to see what your opponent is doing first, just leaves playing catch up. Take some initiative.

I am not going to post banalities simply so viewers can read them: when you send your scout to enemy base, look at their build queues! Oh, and don't forget to cloak the scout before you do!. To move the scout, right click. To select the scout, left click, or make a box around it. If you can't find your scout, the rally point is right in front of the star base.

(Edit: I am not saying here that looking at an opponent's queues is pointless advice to give, or that other tactics can not be mentioned, simply to assume a person be required to write about every itty bitty part of strategy, micro, macro, repair tips, scouting manoeuvres, ad nauseum to me feels unnecessary. I believe there to be particular threads where you elaborate on said tactics and tidbits, but in a general outline, I didn't feel that advice was necessary. Just like me saying when to start building other units and which is pointless. Because nothing is mandated. You can go kvort, susa, battle yard and so forth, but this strategy does not prefer any. Once you have your expansions, it would be whatever you are comfortable with.)

...

(...)   

Also, I find it funny the great strategic consideration given to counters. Having a cheat sheet for which ships to build for which units suggests zero strategy, and just gives a predetermined stepladder approach. I build X, therefore you build Y. You built Y, therefore I build Z. etc. Wow... look at all that predetermined strategy, incredible!

The reality has always been mixed fleets: funny thing is, you can do just that! Build 4-8 kbeajqs. Secure some expansions. Then expand brel and susa extensions and build battle yard. (or, and much better strategically, you use strategy to find a way to defeat a unit intended to counter what you are building by doing something that counters the counter)

You might only start with 3 units, scout kbeajq and ktinga, but really, this strategy can not be solely reduced to them.

Also note, I never mentioned this strategy for anything other than feds. Others mentioned interest in other match ups and how it might pan out. But I did not assume anything about the success of this strategy beyond fed faction, and 1v1. Although a post was already made about a 2v2 game.

Comments about bugs s2s lhvls and so forth don't really make a point. If they block, fine, don't use this strategy.

For feds though, its clearly an option. The intrepid counter in my view is ineffective considering ktingas, scouts, and speed of first 4 kbeajq that allow you to expand unchallenged.   

posted on January 11th, 2012, 1:37 pm

My strategy is not conditional on my opponent's build order to start, no, but it is open to consideration. I can switch builds if necessary, or pop miners to add greater numbers. I do not wait to make sure building this unit is safe, I just build it. If there's trouble, I'll adjust. To assume you should always wait to see what your opponent is doing first, just leaves playing catch up. Take some initiative.

I am not going to post banalities simply so viewers can read them: when you send your scout to enemy base, look at their build queues! Oh, and don't forget to cloak the scout before you do!. To move the scout, right click. To select the scout, left click, or make a box around it. If you can't find your scout, the rally point is right in front of the star base.

I also didnt say you should built a few ships while you tech up this goes without saying, but you have left no room for much change...... you just build 2 k'beq yards..... you currently have no room for change.

If there's trouble, I'll adjust.

So then your playing catch up lol......

just leaves playing catch up. Take some initiative.

Try to follow your own advice.

I don't argue that this strategy might work against ai altho you also haven't mentioned what difficulty so what else can i do but either assume or guess when you don't say.

When there are not enough players for a game i play against merciless .... this wont work against them as they are not effected by resources attacks like at all due to their massive cost reductions.

This also most likely wont work against hard ai either since they also have cost reductions and destroyers like k'beq would be overwhelmed.

But against normal sure i have no doubt it will work fine.

Against a human they would have to be pretty bad not to simply counter it. Klingons are not dom you lose those ships and you are screwed.

posted on January 11th, 2012, 3:31 pm

When there are not enough players for a game i play against merciless .... this wont work against them as they are not effected by resources attacks like at all due to their massive cost reductions.

Try playing on Duel II, with the following tips.   

Set yourself on the top slot, and the AI on the bottom.    Build your second yard on the center dilithum moon, but don't set-up mining operations there.  Expand to the top-left expansion, and attack the AI's bottom-right expansion. 

If you can prevent both a third yard and/or defense platforms from being built on this expansion, it tends to "stunt" the AI (because they constantly try to rebuild it).  For whatever reasons, the Merciless Fed AI will build an Antares yard at the lower-left expansion (and perhaps a Eraudi around their main base), but won't use either one until the one at the bottom-right expansion is complete. 

From there, it's just a matter of keeping this expansion beat-down, and coordinating multiple attacks of opportunity around the other two expansions (top-right and bottom-left).  Your primary targets should be constructors.  If you can pick-off stray combat ships as they attempt to attack your single expansion, that is a bonus.    Before you expand to the top-right, build a mining station just to the left of the center Dilithum moon, and set-up your newly-built starships to stage over that station.

What will happen is that your new ships will naturally pick-apart any stray ships as they migrate around the map, while your primary fleet kills "high priority" targets eslewhere.  You then have two ranked fleets, at which point Map and resource control becomes much easier.   

posted on January 11th, 2012, 5:58 pm

I don't understand all this MrXT. Like are you kidding, or just...? I stated it right in the original post .... tested against Merciless AI. I then encouraged online players to try it. I wrote it simply owns. In other words, you destroy merciless AI with this. Do what the instructions say. Build 1st yard on left, 2nd yard on right. Mining stations. Expand to centre di immediately, and once the fourth kbeajqs is queued, halt orders until mining station is up. ETc

I just finished writing a post, go back 4 or 5. I can beat merciless AI with this giving it lower build costs. Even at .9 and .9 for build and time cost reduction, merciless still gets utterly destroyed. I either beat it by the time it reaches 1 akira, or by the time it is spamming nova, intrepids, monsoons, and sabers. Although, reducing their build time costs does make it slightly more challenging. I have never seen the AI reach eraudi with this. Maybe if you make it .7, or something.

You have no room for change before 4 kbeajqs. I'll agree with that more or less. After that, if there was great cause for concern, you could use four kbeajqs, a number of ktingas, and scouts, while you cancel your kbeajq queue order, and switch to kvort and susa. Or take the time to expand. Those initial number of 6+ ships will greatly outnumber any number of ships the feds could possibly produce in the first several minutes of the game. So you have options, cloak them close by to the enemy mining, and if they attack, destroy the mining. Or play very defensively, and just guard things with those ships. For sure attack any attempted expansions...

I simply encouraged online players to test it out. I didn't really know if it would worked. That's why I suggested it. That and the guide.

Quote " (Merciless AI) this wont work against them as they are not effected by resources attacks like at all due to their massive cost reductions.

This also most likely wont work against hard ai either since they also have cost reductions and destroyers like k'beq would be overwhelmed."

See, assumptions. And here you are just flat wrong. Cost reductions and destroyers do absolutely nothing against this strategy. In fact, what it does do, is make my kbeajqs vets very quickly and give me lots of supply.  That is one concern I was wondering if people would mention. Against AI, I don't run into supply problems until I reach a mixed fleet of 30 ships. Online that might change...

The map was tested on duel II. I have also tried it on half a dozen other maps, so long as it is a small or medium size map it works perfect. Outland? (i think) Blue Skies. Duel II. Path to Nowhere. Um a whole bunch really.

posted on January 11th, 2012, 7:22 pm

I don't understand all this MrXT. Like are you kidding, or just...? I stated it right in the original post .... tested against Merciless AI. I then encouraged online players to try it. I wrote it simply owns. In other words, you destroy merciless AI with this. Do what the instructions say. Build 1st yard on left, 2nd yard on right. Mining stations. Expand to centre di immediately, and once the fourth kbeajqs is queued, halt orders until mining station is up. ETc

I just finished writing a post, go back 4 or 5. I can beat merciless AI with this giving it lower build costs. Even at .9 and .9 for build and time cost reduction, merciless still gets utterly destroyed. I either beat it by the time it reaches 1 akira, or by the time it is spamming nova, intrepids, monsoons, and sabers. Although, reducing their build time costs does make it slightly more challenging. I have never seen the AI reach eraudi with this. Maybe if you make it .7, or something.

You have no room for change before 4 kbeajqs. I'll agree with that more or less. After that, if there was great cause for concern, you could use four kbeajqs, a number of ktingas, and scouts, while you cancel your kbeajq queue order, and switch to kvort and susa. Or take the time to expand. Those initial number of 6+ ships will greatly outnumber any number of ships the feds could possibly produce in the first several minutes of the game. So you have options, cloak them close by to the enemy mining, and if they attack, destroy the mining. Or play very defensively, and just guard things with those ships. For sure attack any attempted expansions...

I simply encouraged online players to test it out. I didn't really know if it would worked. That's why I suggested it. That and the guide.

Quote " (Merciless AI) this wont work against them as they are not effected by resources attacks like at all due to their massive cost reductions.

This also most likely wont work against hard ai either since they also have cost reductions and destroyers like k'beq would be overwhelmed."

See, assumptions. And here you are just flat wrong. Cost reductions and destroyers do absolutely nothing against this strategy. In fact, what it does do, is make my kbeajqs vets very quickly and give me lots of supply.  That is one concern I was wondering if people would mention. Against AI, I don't run into supply problems until I reach a mixed fleet of 30 ships. Online that might change...

The map was tested on duel II. I have also tried it on half a dozen other maps, so long as it is a small or medium size map it works perfect. Outland? (i think) Blue Skies. Duel II. Path to Nowhere. Um a whole bunch really.

They are not assumptions they are facts.... iv played against merciless on many many occasions, they always build multiple shipyards and about 5 mins into the game start spamming the hell out of units so unless your on a very small map then you will never stop them with destroyers, they will ALWAYS out produce you and overwhelm you so live in your fantasy world if you must but the only thing that will stop the merciless from spamming ships is the destruction of its starbase or starbases.

Don't know how such a strat will work out on a small map but it defo will not work in larger maps. Altho i have my doubts it will even work on smaller ones, ones you stir up the ai they begin attacking so without some exploits like nebs or something you done.

[godsvoice]

posted on January 11th, 2012, 7:34 pm

Last edited by godsvoice on January 11th, 2012, 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sheer ignorance. First, I play AI all the time. I already wrote that it might not necessarily work on large maps. I have strategies that defeat up to 3 AI merciless Feds on large maps like Naleri, Blue Amber and others.

The only thing that will stop AI is destroying its starbase(s)? We're not in 3.1.5 anymore. Don't be foolish.

I can tell you exactly how to defeat AI with destroyers: destroy all construction ships, and yards.

You don't even have to worry about star bases or miners and mining stations. The strategy outlined that because I geared it for online gameplay. Although, it's still nice to do against AI = Ranks. 

If they have no construction ships = no new stations. If you destroy all yards = no spamming.

Fantasy world? I already stated that this has worked on multiple maps... it's no fantasy. The largest I've actually played this on is Champagne Supernova. It worked. It took time hunting everything down, it is a large map. But it works. I can tell just by looking at Hazard (18 0000 x 18 000) that it will work on that map too. Furthermore, I'm sure upwards of 20 k it would work on most maps with clear centralized moons.

I don't know how old you are MrXT, or what you are doing in life. I suggest never entering into a real live debate under any circumstances. This whole conversation is a joke. You have nothing meaningful to say except stereotypical jargon. Merciless AI spams ships regardless of resource intake... I know... But destroyers can still win. And this builds up to cruisers and such if you want.

posted on January 12th, 2012, 3:40 pm

I've tried the strat yesterday against Mr XT. He took Roms and did a Rhienn spam - outproduced me. I tried to raid him, did it sucessfully during the first minutes(he lost miners, I did not) - Problem: Rhienns have phase plates, KBQ is not a damage dealer. I underestimated the reduction phase plates give against medium range. I tried to get him with torp drones later on, worked several times, but more often than not he used the phase plates and I didn't hit due to replaceweapon. Additionally one lacks cloak detect as Klingon with this strat. I'm pretty sure the situation would be similar against Intrepid spam: Fed miners are stronger, Ints do more damage to KBQ - result: you have to take even more damage in a raid to be successful. Due to the small damage of KBQ even two Rhienns could become annoying. 

[godsvoice]

posted on January 12th, 2012, 5:30 pm

Last edited by godsvoice on January 12th, 2012, 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah, I stated some doubts for Romulans with this in the original post. One, they cloak also. Rhienns only take 62 seconds, vs intrepids which are 82 seconds, so a fair bit longer. I wouldn't be so quick to think the same thing would happen with feds though. Also, rhienns are long range, and can engage from further away (so kbeajq have to engage, or suffer damage - if they engage, probably get attacked by star base). Intrepids need to engage closer to Kbeajqs range. Did you stop him from expanding?

Few questions: which without having a replay to look at, and see what happened not sure if I'll be able to add anything to make it better. What map was this, was it on duel II or something larger? Did you pop any ktingas to add to firepower, use scouts? I guess if you got his miners it would have been somewhat successful. Did you leave them there, and expand to centre, use any other expansions? Able to destroy any construction ships? Did he manage to expand, should take a little while for him to do it.

At least we have a bit of actual information to work with now though. I'd still like a video vs Feds. At least that way I can comment on something, either way it goes, win or loss for Klingons. It really wasn't designed for Romulans anyways. Others posted about games where it didn't work so well when playing as feds. But still worth seeing more games. As you stated, in that game you did get miner kills, so it's possible to do alternative things. How many kbeajqs did you end up building roughly?

I think the peak point of this is what happens once 4 kbeajqs are on the board. Because you can cancel the build order and build qawduj out of star base. Pop ktingas. Go for research. Kvorts. etc.

Thanks for playing the game though, it's not like it only has to be played against Feds, can be tried with all of them. But intrepids are not as fast to get out as rhienns, and are not long range.

posted on January 12th, 2012, 5:50 pm

He could NEVER have stopped me from expanding with k'beq they build too slow and as soon as my mining dil mining is up 1 constructor expands and the other builds my tri mining.... no chance.

I choose to play defensively in the early game to get kills rather than attack and it worked out my plan was to avoid being counter attacked if i raided him and his ships were in position to raid also we would just be destroying each others expansions over and over so i stayed put rather than play aggressively i could have also mixed some lehevals to get some extra dps on the k'beq but he raided me very well even tho i was always waiting for him till i knew for sure he was repairing at which point i would raid and fall back and then i ended up with some many more ships it didn't matter it looked as tho he was going to tech up but didn't get a chance.