Why I dont consider Enterprise as part of trek.........

posted on January 2nd, 2011, 11:18 pm

Time was to reset and if they messed up they may not have a scanned chance. They did not need to take out the city buy why so small why not make it take out the hole compound.

posted on January 2nd, 2011, 11:20 pm

If those where up to the the power they would need to be you would have seen 2-3 city blocks taken out at the lest.

In addition to what Myles and Tyler have said, you have to keep in mind that you're seeing a weapon designed to be used against hard targets being used against a (relatively) soft target so the damage will be disproportionate to the actual power of the weapon.

posted on January 2nd, 2011, 11:20 pm

Those things can really be toned down a lot.... I don't think the later matter/antimatter photons could go as low.

well the photonics were said to have antimatter warheads, that presumably means matter/antimatter reactions. something else must be different between photonics and photons.

as the casing is relatively harmless presumably a photon could be adjusted to have a really small amount of matter and antimatter. just it wouldnt help much.

Time was to reset and if they messed up they may not have a scanned chance. They did not need to take out the city buy why so small why not make it take out the hole compound.

they only needed the 1 building gone. they got it right, since they 'sploded exactly what they wanted.

posted on January 2nd, 2011, 11:22 pm

They were never implied to be matter/anitmatter warheads, canon only refers to the as an antimatter warhead.

posted on January 2nd, 2011, 11:24 pm

They were never implied to be matter/anitmatter warheads, canon only refers to the as an antimatter warhead.

how else would antimatter cause an explosion? due to the similarity of the torpedoes its reasonable to assume both use m/a annihilation.

posted on January 2nd, 2011, 11:24 pm

Time was to reset and if they messed up they may not have a scanned chance. They did not need to take out the city buy why so small why not make it take out the hole compound.

Half because ENT always had to show how weak the early Starfleet-ships were (however NX-01 survived everything magically  :whistling:) and half because they were the good ones who only take out evil stuff.

i dont remember anything saying that photons were introduced in tos either. but if they were it wouldnt conflict since enterprise only had the klinks use "photons"

in jj trek the photons were in use on the kelvin, before tos

1. Photon torpedoes and torpedoes at all in Star Trek were shown somewhere in the second season of TOS for the very first time, and some books like the fact files and show-reviewing books officially released sometimes told that the Enterprise was refitted with torpedoes then because they were new technology which eliminates the prequel-photonics of ENT.


2. JJ-Trek is an alternate timeline so it doesn't matter. ENT was no alternate timeline in it's entirety, it was like a prequel-show to TOS (and like the Star Wars prequels screwed Star Wars and the Jedi, ENT screwed TOS and the Alpha-quadrant).

posted on January 2nd, 2011, 11:27 pm

they only needed the 1 building gone. they got it right, since they 'sploded exactly what they wanted.

Well if they did not there future and past is gone.

let me put it this way:

If your hole life came down to nocking over a bottle with another object from a fixed location that required you to threw the object. would you use a pebble or would you use a large rock?

posted on January 2nd, 2011, 11:41 pm

2. JJ-Trek is an alternate timeline so it doesn't matter. ENT was no alternate timeline in it's entirety, it was like a prequel-show to TOS (and like the Star Wars prequels screwed Star Wars and the Jedi, ENT screwed TOS and the Alpha-quadrant).

i tend to agree and ignore jj trek. in this case though the kelvin was built BEFORE the timeline change. ie the kelvin was the same in both treks. thats why its in the ma article for photon torpedo.

Well if they did not there future and past is gone.

let me put it this way:

If your hole life came down to nocking over a bottle with another object from a fixed location that required you to threw the object. would you use a pebble or would you use a large rock?

thats a bad analogy.

lets adjust it:
what if the only large rock available was on a pressure switch, and you knew that if you removed the rock 100 babies would be gassed to death.

in this case using a full yield torp would kill many innocents, and they were probably confident in their ability to do the job with a lower yield. they are really good at throwing pebbles, to return to your analogy.

posted on January 2nd, 2011, 11:51 pm

how else would antimatter cause an explosion? due to the similarity of the torpedoes its reasonable to assume both use m/a annihilation.

According to Menory Alpha, different type of antimatter can be used for different things. It wouldn't be strange to find a type that explodes without needing matter as part of the mix, but isn't as capable or safe.

It was referred to as an antimatter warhead and provided by the antimatter in the engines, but regular matter was never brought up.

posted on January 2nd, 2011, 11:57 pm

It was referred to as an antimatter warhead and provided by the antimatter in the engines, but regular matter was never brought up.

meh, there is no way to know for sure, we can only conjecture. i will keep the opinion that its a m/a reaction like in photons and warp cores.

posted on January 3rd, 2011, 12:48 am

Here's why enterprise has stuff that you wouldn't think it would due to TOS.

First Contact screwed up the timeline.  Why the future-feds who enforce the Temporal Prime Directive didn't intervene is beyond me, though.  Unless they forsaw that it would make the Federation stronger, so in a classic case of looking the other way when breaking the rules benefits them...

posted on January 3rd, 2011, 12:55 am

Predestination paradox is a more likely cause; Starfleet is unlikely to stay out if it benefits them because that goes against the temporal prime directive and the entire point of an entire division designed to prevent such things.

They're more likely to stay out if they believe they have to, as much as they may hate that type of paradox.

posted on January 3rd, 2011, 1:15 am

Do we have to dig up the time travel episodes from TOS and TNG, Tok'ra?

In TOS and TNG the ship didnt dogfight Nazi aircraft (and miss quite badly)

So you didn't even watch the episode, you just judged it based on it's NAME?!

Here's the gist of it.

Reed and Archer return to an alien planet that wasn't very close to warp to retrieve a communicator that Reed dropped.  This planet is on the brink of nuclear war.  They get caught and are interrogated.  The aliens discover that they aren't the same species, but are rather wearing prostheses to look like them.  They get ready to start dissecting them after they figure out how to use the phase pistols they had.  Archer and Reed prepare to sacrifice themselves rather than cause this warlike planet to have certain proof of aliens and the advanced technology that may let them go out and slaughter people.

T'pol successfully launches a rescue mission.

The episode is the framework for the Prime Directive.

To be fair, I have to defend that episode, it was one of the better done ones of the series.

Some one should let the writers know.

And the blast from 4 torpedos only took out part of one building?

To days missiles are far far better.

That too. When TESTING their new phase cannons (forget the episode name, the one were the ship keeps attacking them and not communicating, and they fabricate and install the phase cannons) they blow up a MOUNTAIN on a planetoid when testing them. But in this episode, the torpedos do less damage than a modern cruise missile.

I know, they got the photonic torps before they travelled into the expanse

I also remember the targeting exercises with those spacial torpedoes  :wacko:

Which leads me to the following: The TOS-era introduced the torps on Starfleet vessels in the first place. The original Enterprise had Phasers only for some time.

Actualy, as I recall, it started out with LASERS when Pike was in command.

In-universe, that could be explained by things never getting serious enough to use them or just not being on camera at the time.

Earth attacked.

Millions killed.

Powerful aliens wanting to eradicate entire species.

Not serious ?

Cmon, common sense please.

it was Enterprise. That is all.

Well, I suppose that explains it................

in jj trek the photons were in use on the kelvin, before tos

thats got even less to do with Star Trek than Enterprise does.

everyone is forgetting that photonics have a variable yield. why would they program them to put a crater in a major city when they could kill the one building they need to?

they didnt know daniels would hit the reset button, they didnt wanna kill half the population of the city. they only wanted 1 building gone, so they got rid of it. why waste good anti matter

in enterprise dialogue they said a photonic could put a 3km crater into a standard surface.

And yet they are so incompetent that they are unable to destroy a building with them ?

it strikes me that they should have easily took out that building in a single shot.....

And as for the Stukas..... why dogfight them ? They're a freaking SPACE SHIP. Fly fast, and kill them with your jetwash.

Not to metnion how unable to hit targets they were in that episode..... they can hit space ships moving at a decent fraction of light speed....... at warp speeds even ....... but stuka dive bombers and suddenly they cant hit the broadside of a barn ?

More of the same quote from Reed was that it could "knock the com array off a shuttlepod without scratching the hull, or put a three-kilometer crater into an asteroid".

Those things can really be toned down a lot.... I don't think the later matter/antimatter photons could go as low. Unless you count Voyager hitting a shuttle inside a large city without even hitting the nearby building...

Yield depends on how much antimatter is loaded. The lowest setting would be no antimatter, and lower the ammount of fuel so only the impact does damage.

That implies they are in essence the same weapon with an antimatter warhead, as conventional explosives do not allow for such a large yield in a compact package.

In addition to what Myles and Tyler have said, you have to keep in mind that you're seeing a weapon designed to be used against hard targets being used against a (relatively) soft target so the damage will be disproportionate to the actual power of the weapon.

Exellent point.

well the photonics were said to have antimatter warheads, that presumably means matter/antimatter reactions.

No presumeably to it, antimatter is a high explosive. If it's warhead is antimatter there WILL be an antimatter reaction. That implies a big boom.

as the casing is relatively harmless presumably a photon could be adjusted to have a really small amount of matter and antimatter. just it wouldnt help much.

For taking out a small target like that factory a small ammount would be just perfect. Hell, they could sit up in orbit and fire a single shot, let the kinetic force do the damage.

they only needed the 1 building gone. they got it right, since they 'sploded exactly what they wanted.

Took em a while, and they did it in a rather poor fashion.

While dogfighting propeller planes, and missing.

i tend to agree and ignore jj trek. in this case though the kelvin was built BEFORE the timeline change. ie the kelvin was the same in both treks. thats why its in the ma article for photon torpedo.

The Kelvin is still JJ trek, and thus is not connected to trek.

They were never implied to be matter/anitmatter warheads, canon only refers to the as an antimatter warhead.

Wow, are you serious ?

According to Menory Alpha, different type of antimatter can be used for different things. It wouldn't be strange to find a type that explodes without needing matter as part of the mix, but isn't as capable or safe.

It was referred to as an antimatter warhead and provided by the antimatter in the engines, but regular matter was never brought up.

I guess you  WERE serious.

Ok class, science lesson time.

Antimatter explodes when contacting normal matter. This isnt a trek thing, antimatter exists IRL too.

The engines do not provide antimatter for the photons (in TMP, when the Enterprise's design flaw of the lack of engines taking the phasers off line... remember how tehy used photons instead ).

The engines recieve antimatter from magnetic bottles that store the antimatter. The torpedo rooms have smaller stores of antimatter or recieve antimatter from the same storage as enginering, depending on the design of the vessel.

Antimatter is like gas today, it's a fuel, but if you put it in a bottle (photon casing) light a fuse, and toss it at something (Comrade Molotov) it will give that something a bad day.

meh, there is no way to know for sure, we can only conjecture. i will keep the opinion that its a m/a reaction like in photons and warp cores.

What else COULD it be if antimatter is involved ?

That antimatter would do something, and once it's not contained, it would explode.

[Tyler]

posted on January 3rd, 2011, 1:20 am

Last edited by Tyler on January 3rd, 2011, 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Earth attacked.

Millions killed.

Powerful aliens wanting to eradicate entire species.

Not serious ?

Cmon, common sense please.

Name 1 time that happened in TOS.

I guess you  WERE serious.

Ok class, science lesson time.

Antimatter explodes when contacting normal matter. This isnt a trek thing, antimatter exists IRL too.

The engines do not provide antimatter for the photons (in TMP, when the Enterprise's design flaw of the lack of engines taking the phasers off line... remember how tehy used photons instead ).

The engines recieve antimatter from magnetic bottles that store the antimatter. The torpedo rooms have smaller stores of antimatter or recieve antimatter from the same storage as enginering, depending on the design of the vessel.

Antimatter is like gas today, it's a fuel, but if you put it in a bottle (photon casing) light a fuse, and toss it at something (Comrade Molotov) it will give that something a bad day.

Now for your lesson; Star Trek antimatter, just like many other things in Trek, doesn't always act like Real life stuff. Only a true idiot would try to apply realism to Star Trek, especially considering things with realistic names do not have the same effort or a consistent effect.

It's also a canon fact that they are antimatter warheads, never called matter/antimatter warheads or even implied to be one.

NX-01 also supplies the photonic warheads from the ships reserve.

posted on January 3rd, 2011, 3:38 am

Well those babies wont have died if you complet you motion.

i tend to agree and ignore jj trek. in this case though the kelvin was built BEFORE the timeline change. ie the kelvin was the same in both treks. thats why its in the ma article for photon torpedo.

thats a bad analogy.

lets adjust it:
what if the only large rock available was on a pressure switch, and you knew that if you removed the rock 100 babies would be gassed to death.

in this case using a full yield torp would kill many innocents, and they were probably confident in their ability to do the job with a lower yield. they are really good at throwing pebbles, to return to your analogy.

lets play with that line of thinking: well why fired any torpedos they may kill the janitorial staff that are not part of the enemy or may be a brick could fly out to the bilding and hit a baby. Maybe some of those people in the building are only with the enemy because they have no chose..... So dont fier at the building at all.