Star Trek vs Star Wars

posted on November 11th, 2013, 10:34 pm

I've never had any beef with the idea that Star Wars vessels are vastly faster than their Star Trek equivalents.

One of the major planks of the Trek setting is that it's meant to feel more like a frontier setting, with ships isolated from each other and Command. Even in the TNG era, with better and faster ships, they were careful to tune the revised warp scale so as not to trivialise travel.

Compare to Star Wars, where travel to distant reaches of the galaxy is quite routine and ships are fast enough even without hyperdrive to allow transtellar hops in reasonable time (Hoth to Bespin).

Speed isn't the be-all and end-all of sophistication though. Both the Mass Effect and EVE Online settings have forms of instantaneous travel (Mass Relays and Stargates, respectively) but I wouldn't rate their ships against what Star Trek or Star Wars have to offer.

posted on November 12th, 2013, 1:39 am

When comparing the Star Trek universe to the Star Wars universe, it is always important to keep these things in mind:

The Star Trek Galaxy is comprised of many different little empires and confederations, while the Star Wars galaxy for the most part is a gigantic galactic empire controlled from Corasaunt.

The Star Trek Galaxy (and particularly the Federation) is constantly improving their technology through innovation, the Star Wars Galaxy makes comparable improvements over thousands of years. This is because most base Star Wars technology is over 30,000 years old, and therefore almost everything made is reverse engineered (very little innovation.)

Star Wars ships are faster then Star Trek ships, but Star Wars ships are bound by hyperspace lanes that must be forged and maintained via nav charts. Star Trek ships, for the most part, can warp anywhere they want to provided that they can wait long enough.

Star Wars ships are powered via an matter/antimatter reaction, similar to dilithium reaction chambers. However, we know that by TNG the Federation has managed to miniaturize this reaction and stick it into shuttles. Star Wars fighters, however, still run on some form of non-perpetual fuel and sometimes must get refueled (ex. Droid Fighters). We can expand this example to make the generalization that: Dilithium > Star Wars power sources.

Star Trek capital ship battles revolve around the individual actions of ships to win battles, as a single cruiser has the ability to decimate an entire planet. Star Wars capital ships, however, are used in a more 'nautical' fashion, as their weapons are not efficient at destroying smaller targets. Ground forces are also much more important in Star Wars battles because planets are not as helpless to space based firepower and most planets in the Star Wars universe are extremely developed.

Star Wars economy > Any race's economy in Star Trek.



So, if we wanted to create a theoretical war between the Federation and the Empire for instance, we would end up with the following results:

1. Star Destroyer vs. Enterprise-D:

Result: Enterprise wins!

Reasoning: Galaxy classes have more efficient power sources & more powerful weapons. In addition, phaser targeting systems make ST fighters ineffective.

2. Star Destroyer vs. TOS Enterpirse

Result: Enterprise wins!

Reasoning: Although the two ships may have similar power reserves, the Enterprise still has the ability to destroy an entire planet, something a Star Destroyer cannot do.

3. Death Star vs. Enterprise-E

Result: Death Star wins!

4. Death Star vs. Borg Cube

Result: Death Star would win the first time, but Borg would adapt to some extent and it would eventually become a toss up.

5. Galactic Empire vs. Federation

Result: Galactic Empire wins!

Reasoning: Although the Federation have superior weaponry, the sheer number of Imperial ships (not to mention ground troops) would decimate everything.

6. Galactic Empire vs. Borg

Result: Resistance is futile

Reasoning: Borg tech is more advanced then even the Federation. Combine that with the fact that the Borg would adapt to turbo lasers faster then you could say "Use the force, Luke" and it only makes sense that the Borg would dominate.

7. Star Wars Galaxy vs. Star Trek Galaxy

Result: Star Wars Galaxy wins!

Reasoning: While the different factions of the Star Trek Galaxy are cumulatively more powerful then those of the Star Wars Galaxy, the Star Trek Galaxy lacks the economic and political alliances that would be needed to halt a galactic invasion.

posted on November 12th, 2013, 3:06 am

Looking at it in an anthropological way, it makes sense that the technology in Star Wars has stagnated. Whether we like it or not, war and even the threat of war speeds up technological progress. Different powers are constantly involved in arms races to maintain technological leads (or at least parity) . These innovations also effect the civilian sector as technology trickles down (think of the jet engine for example, or radar)

With there being no other galactic power to oppose the Republic for so long, there was no need to improve at all. Everything could work pretty much at the pace it did, as if they didn't improve their hyperdrives, big deal, there was no-one else around who had.

posted on November 12th, 2013, 4:14 am

3. Death Star vs. Enterprise-E

Result: Death Star wins!

4. Death Star vs. Borg Cube

Result: Death Star would win the first time, but Borg would adapt to some extent and it would eventually become a toss up.

5. Galactic Empire vs. Federation

Result: Galactic Empire wins!

Reasoning: Although the Federation have superior weaponry, the sheer number of Imperial ships (not to mention ground troops) would decimate everything.

Deathstar vs Enterprise, I would go with the Enterprise. (Especially with prior knowledge of the Deathstar's abilities) The big bad laser that the Deathstar has, would simply not hit the Enterprise. Especially once you start to count some of Picards favorite tactics, such as his "warp mirror". (Going to warp speed for a instant creating a mirror illusion. Against something as bulky and slow as the Deathstar, I'm sure this could be accomplished multiple times for infinite illusions. And bear in mind that the Deathstar needs needs to charge it's weapons.
And as far as a counter-attack. Star Treks computers are obviously far more advanced then anything Star Wars has to offer. Pair that with Data, they would know instantly how to destroy the Deathstar, and would proceed to do so with a single quantum torpedo. (Two if Worf is one firing)

Deathstar vs Voyager, Janeway would simply use her holographic projectors to create decoys. Fires torpedoes, Deathstar destroyed.

Deathstar vs Defiant, the big bad laser cannot hit the defiant (especially when cloaked). Checkmate.

If a bunch of Star Wars fighters (basically equivalent to Star Treks shuttle-craft) can take down the Deathstar, I have a hard time believing that the upper echelon of Federation ships can't.

posted on November 12th, 2013, 1:54 pm

Star Wars ships are powered via an matter/antimatter reaction, similar to dilithium reaction chambers. However, we know that by TNG the Federation has managed to miniaturize this reaction and stick it into shuttles. Star Wars fighters, however, still run on some form of non-perpetual fuel and sometimes must get refueled (ex. Droid Fighters). We can expand this example to make the generalization that: Dilithium > Star Wars power sources.

I do not know why you can make this assumption. Just because the Federation has developed small warp powerplants and put them in shuttles does not mean that Star Trek powerplants are more powerful or effective than those in Star Wars. Matter/Antimatter reactions even in Star Trek require fuel (matter and antimatter) and will need to be refilled from time to time. Besides, Droid fighters are a poor example since they have no hyperdrive, as far as I know. A Y-Wing (you should know) is a better comparison since it is of similar size to a shuttlecraft, yet it does have a hyperdrive.

Also, I have never read that hyperdrive in the Star Wars universe uses matter/antimatter reactions. Not saying that there isn't something you have read that I have not, but I have read quite a bit myself. They tend not to explain how their ships are propelled. Again, it isn't necessary to the genre.

Thirdly, Dilithium is not a fuel or a reactant in the Star Trek universe. It is a mediator of the matter/antimatter reaction. Sort of like a control rod in a fission reactor, but not exactly. It is essential to the process but it is not consumed in it.

So, if we wanted to create a theoretical war between the Federation and the Empire for instance, we would end up with the following results:

I am sorry, but few if any of your numbered scenarios make sense or sound very well reasoned beyond the assumption that Star Trek ships are just technologically superior.

7. Star Wars Galaxy vs. Star Trek Galaxy

Result: Star Wars Galaxy wins!

Reasoning: While the different factions of the Star Trek Galaxy are cumulatively more powerful then those of the Star Wars Galaxy, the Star Trek Galaxy lacks the economic and political alliances that would be needed to halt a galactic invasion.

I think that when most people think of the age-old Star Trek vs. Star Wars argument they view it as: what if the sum totals of each universe were to combat each other (thereby assuming that everyone from the Star Trek universe is allied together and similarly for Star Wars)?

This line of thought means that all traditional alliances and conflicts in the respective universes would be ignored because, for this matter, they are all on the same "team".

If you tried considering it the other way around (essentially just combining the two universes and see what happens), neither one would be perfectly united and there would certainly be factions who still fight for themselves (i.e. the Borg and the Yuuzhan Vong). This scenario of Star Trek vs. Star Wars would make no sense. The Federation probably wouldn't fight anyone because it isn't in their nature. The Hutts would continue to deal with anyone and everyone, especially the Ferengi.

posted on November 12th, 2013, 7:42 pm

you cant pit one against the other without having to throw away some important franchise fiction

eg. the force isn't compatible with star trek

so you would have to ignore stuff or say its in one of the universes.



in star trek universe no force and lasers do nothing to shields so star trek wins

in star wars universe they have the force so star wars can win.

the other point is if its "star trek" not 1 faction like feds then its fed dominion klingon borg 8472 all working together vs the rebels and empire. and at what quantity do you fight?

one of each ship from both franchises? or theoretical of every ship and planet that has been mentioned?

if its truly franchise vs franchise star wars becomes a galaxy of cyborg zombies with 10s of thousands of borg ships they just have to beam over..

posted on November 12th, 2013, 8:04 pm

Dilithium > Star Wars power sources.

I do not know why you can make this assumption. Just because the Federation has developed small warp powerplants and put them in shuttles does not mean that Star Trek powerplants are more powerful or effective than those in Star Wars. Matter/Antimatter reactions even in Star Trek require fuel (matter and antimatter) and will need to be refilled from time to time. Besides, Droid fighters are a poor example since they have no hyperdrive, as far as I know. A Y-Wing (you should know) is a better comparison since it is of similar size to a shuttlecraft, yet it does have a hyperdrive.

Yeah, this was kind of a weak argument on my part. As you pointed out, Star Wars fighter craft do seem to equal TNG shuttlecraft as far as engine abilities go (although not as far as secondary systems, such as transporters.)

However, it is not a stretch to assume that Star Trek ships are superior in power capabilities. The most obvious difference is in weapon systems, and I won't elaborate on that again. Another area is defensive systems. Take, for instance, deflector shields.
Star Wars ships (for the most part) use a type of shielding called 'energy shielding'. This type of shielding blocks energy based weapons (turbo lasers).
Star Trek ships, by contrast, use what Star Wars cannon refers to as 'particle shielding'. This type of shielding keeps out everything. Star Wars ships are also equipped with particle shielding, which is superior to energy shielding, but it is very weak and is usually reserved exclusively for hyperspace travel or emergency scenarios. (This is referenced from the Complete Guide to SW Vehicles.)

Thirdly, Dilithium is not a fuel or a reactant in the Star Trek universe. It is a mediator of the matter/antimatter reaction. Sort of like a control rod in a fission reactor, but not exactly. It is essential to the process but it is not consumed in it.

I didn't know this. Thanks for the correction!

So, if we wanted to create a theoretical war between the Federation and the Empire for instance, we would end up with the following results:

I am sorry, but few if any of your numbered scenarios make sense or sound very well reasoned beyond the assumption that Star Trek ships are just technologically superior.

Calling a response badly reasoned and then not giving any reasons for your accusation is both counterproductive and ironic. With that said, I put more analysis into the preceding points then the numbered scenarios because the former were supposed to explain the latter.

7. Star Wars Galaxy vs. Star Trek Galaxy

Result: Star Wars Galaxy wins!

Reasoning: While the different factions of the Star Trek Galaxy are cumulatively more powerful then those of the Star Wars Galaxy, the Star Trek Galaxy lacks the economic and political alliances that would be needed to halt a galactic invasion.

If you tried considering it the other way around (essentially just combining the two universes and see what happens), neither one would be perfectly united and there would certainly be factions who still fight for themselves (i.e. the Borg and the Yuuzhan Vong). This scenario of Star Trek vs. Star Wars would make no sense. The Federation probably wouldn't fight anyone because it isn't in their nature. The Hutts would continue to deal with anyone and everyone, especially the Ferengi.

On the contrary, it makes much more sense to combine the two universes and see what happens. It would make absolutely no sense to assume that the Borg would fight alongside the Federation or that the Jedi would fight alongside the Sith. Perhaps it would make more sense analysis-wise to pretend that everyone would magically become friends, but I personally find that to be unbelievable.

On that note, if you were to combine the two worlds, it would be interesting to see if certain factions 'allied' with each other. Would the Federation get along better with the Empire or the Rebellion? Would Species 8972 (or whatever that number is) get along with the Yuuzhan Vong? Anyway, that's neither here nor there.

EDIT: Perhaps I should be more specific about the Galaxy vs Galaxy conflict scenario mentioned here:

1. For some unspecified reason the 'major' factions in Star Wars (lets say the Republic or Empire) have declared war on the 'major' factions of Star Trek (lets say Feds, Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, and Borg)

2. All of the 'extreme' elements of both universes are in play ( things like transporters, time travel, Borg adaptation, Jedi, the Force, and the Death Star)

3. Factions stay true to their individual beliefs (Borg don't help the Feds, the Sith don't join the Jedi)

4. Similar factions could group together (Sith + klingons????)

posted on November 12th, 2013, 8:49 pm

Yeah, this was kind of a weak argument on my part. As you pointed out, Star Wars fighter craft do seem to equal TNG shuttlecraft as far as engine abilities go (although not as far as secondary systems, such as transporters.)

However, it is not a stretch to assume that Star Trek ships are superior in power capabilities.

No, it is not a great stretch, just an assumption. One that I personally agree with you on.

Thirdly, Dilithium is not a fuel or a reactant in the Star Trek universe. It is a mediator of the matter/antimatter reaction. Sort of like a control rod in a fission reactor, but not exactly. It is essential to the process but it is not consumed in it.

I didn't know this. Thanks for the correction!

No problem, happy to enlighten.

I am sorry, but few if any of your numbered scenarios make sense or sound very well reasoned beyond the assumption that Star Trek ships are just technologically superior.

Calling a response badly reasoned and then not giving any reasons for your accusation is both counterproductive and ironic. With that said, I put more analysis into the preceding points then the numbered scenarios because the former were supposed to explain the latter.

Understood. The only reason I did not explain or elaborate was that my post would have been waaayyy longer than I wanted to type and anyone wanted to read. Overall I did not believe that your former reasoning fully explained the latter conclusions. The answers seemed much too simplified and concise.

On the contrary, it makes much more sense to combine the two universes and see what happens. It would make absolutely no sense to assume that the Borg would fight alongside the Federation or that the Jedi would fight alongside the Sith. Perhaps it would make more sense analysis-wise to pretend that everyone would magically become friends, but I personally find that to be unbelievable.

On that note, if you were to combine the two worlds, it would be interesting to see if certain factions 'allied' with each other. Would the Federation get along better with the Empire or the Rebellion? Would Species 8972 (or whatever that number is) get along with the Yuuzhan Vong? Anyway, that's neither here nor there.

I still disagree. And it goes back to my earlier point which was either ignored or forgotten... that most people's conception of the Star Trek v. Star Wars scenario is akin to having two united universes, the Star Wars one and the Star Trek one, oppose each other. Who would win, based on technology, military might or ability?

If you want to frame the question differently, such that your 'combine them and see who allies with who' approach is used, then I suppose that would be your prerogative. However, that is not what most people think of when asked the question.

Also I would venture to say that such a scenario is no longer Star Wars vs. Star Trek. Instead it becomes some weird cross-pollination of the universes in which they combine and all the "good guys" get together and fight all the "bad guys"... however that might turn out. It is a completely different concept.

EDIT: Perhaps I should be more specific about the Galaxy vs Galaxy conflict scenario mentioned here:

1. For some unspecified reason the 'major' factions in Star Wars (lets say the Republic or Empire) have declared war on the 'major' factions of Star Trek (lets say Feds, Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, and Borg)

2. All of the 'extreme' elements of both universes are in play ( things like transporters, time travel, Borg adaptation, Jedi, the Force, and the Death Star)

3. Factions stay true to their individual beliefs (Borg don't help the Feds, the Sith don't join the Jedi)

4. Similar factions could group together (Sith + klingons????)

Okay... but where do you even begin with this? It becomes some sort of political-philosophical argument of who is on who's side. That complicates the fighting part too because now you have a pollution of technology pools to deal with.

There would be no victor in this scenario. You certainly can't argue that Star Wars won or Star Trek lost because there are no definitive sides anymore. Do you see how this changes the whole nature of the question?

Do the Feds and the Republic join forces because they have similar ideals? The Ferengi and Hutts will seem to gel. Species 8472 and the Yuuzhan Vong are rather similar, but they would likely fight each other and everyone else. The Borg will always be by themselves, unless they get wiped and decided to befriend another Janeway, but maybe this time, for the sake of argument, it's Palpatine...

You can see that I believe everyone views this as a technology discussion, not a political one. Technology and weapons are fairly straightforward to analyze as they are based on science. Politics and philosophy deals with a bunch of intangibles that no one can fully justify or reason out.

posted on November 12th, 2013, 9:27 pm

As far as I can see, the xenophobic, homo-centric Empire is very much an anthesis to the Federation. On the one hand, they'd fight alongside the Rebel Alliance to restore the Republic, given as that government is far more like their own. However, the Federation also preaches non-intervention. The Empire would probably find quite an ally in the Cardassians, or even the Klingons. I think the one group most likely to help the Alliance would be the Maquis.

I can't see the Klingon Empire and the Sith allying. The Sith again work on a whole different wavelength. They are deceitful, they lie, scheme, and betray to achieve their goals. Far more Romulan I think. The Klingons would probably respect the honour and warrior code of the Jedi Order though i'd say.

Yuuzhan Vong, Borg, Species 8472, they'd all be fighting for themselves as usual. I can definitely see the Hutts and the Ferengi (and the Orion Pirates) working together. Similar goals, aims, and ethics (or lack thereof!). The Dominion, i'm not sure. They are prone to rampant xenophobia and an irrational hatred of "solids", but, their use of cloned soldiers, tyrannical government control etc would fit right in with the Empire. They'd either hate each other or ally up.

posted on November 15th, 2013, 7:10 pm

...lasers do nothing to shields so star trek wins

Thats not the case though.

Star Wars lasers = plasma disruptors

To be more specific their "lasers" are very dense bolts of super heated plasma. Something like that, its been a few years since I read that. Lasers is only used since that was the sci-fi go-to especially in the 70's and 80's.

As far as shields there are atleast two types in the Wars universe. A magnetic type and an organic type. One totally absorbs energy weapons while the other nullifies physical weapons.

As for hyperdrive vs warpdrive. Assuming that both Galaxies are the same size and ignoring ST:V and Piet's "other side of the galaxy by now" statement. Going from one edge to the opposite edge would take 100 minutes in SW and 100 years in ST. Thats how I see I've seen it for years.

Oh, and for those that have been away from this planet in the last week or so EP:7 is now officially due 12/18/15.

posted on November 15th, 2013, 11:08 pm

You know what most of these Discussions forget?

Maneuverability!

As it has been presented to us, anything that is neither a fighter nor a specialised Ship in Star Wars is essentially a flying brick in space.
I think even a Constitution Class would be able to outmaneuver any Stardestroyer or even the smaller Carrack Cruisers.
What happens then... I don't know but that's at least something ^^

posted on November 16th, 2013, 2:56 am

As for hyperdrive vs warpdrive. Assuming that both Galaxies are the same size and ignoring ST:V and Piet's "other side of the galaxy by now" statement. Going from one edge to the opposite edge would take 100 minutes in SW and 100 years in ST. Thats how I see I've seen it for years.

This is true, but don't forget that hyperdrive is useless unless there is predetermined nav routes built into the SW's ship's navigation computer. Without the nav computer, SW's ships will have no way to avoid the 'mass shadows' projected into hyperspace. And yes, ships explode if they hit mass shadows.

Warp, while slower, is still useful in uncharted territories. So hyperspace isn't necessarily better then warp drive, it just happens to be much, much faster, but bound by hyper lanes that are forged over 100's of years.


@ LHoffman - I will soon reply to your post, I just need a larger block of time to respond to it - life's been busy at the University.

posted on November 16th, 2013, 1:17 pm

some interesting vids

posted on November 18th, 2013, 1:41 pm

some interesting vids

The first one was pretty funny.

Whoever made the last one needs to go home and rethink their life though.

posted on November 18th, 2013, 2:02 pm

I can't stop laughing about those "lasers" with Data