Miranda vs. Constitution

posted on October 13th, 2010, 6:17 pm

It's never been confirmed that they stopped using Constitutions, only that they scrapped the last Constitution Class Enterprise. It's never been shown whether they were out of service or simply not seen. Starfleet doesn't really scrap ships for being 'old', they scrap what doesn't work. The Miranda and Excelsior worked well and were kept around and build in large numbers, but we never saw about the Constitution Class aside from 1 old ship.

That's interesting that you should point this out.  It really got me thinking about it, because it doesn't make any sense on a number of levels.  For one, the Enterprise was considered the flagship of the fleet, at least from TOS stand point.  It also received a refit as of the first motion picture, so in theory many other Constitutions either followed suit, or where built to similar specs after that time.  Assuming the refit was good though, because for the life of me I can't recall them referring to Enterprise as the default flag in any of the motion pictures (maybe with the exception of Khan, since Kirk was an admiral at that point), then why scrap it?

The only answer I can come up with comes from your suggestion that it just doesn't work.  If that's the case, then the best and only answer that comes to mind is how the Enterprise's armaments were setup.  They were all forward mounted, if I recall correctly.  So with that as a working theory, then it is presumable that Enterprise alone was scrapped for the sole purpose that Starfleet wasn't going to invest in the training of having a new crew (let's face it, they were pretty old at this point) prepared and ready to fight with such a one-directional weapon.  It makes sense in a lot of ways, especially given that we see Mirandas still being used in TNG era and they're by no means superior to the Constitutions.  It also just seems really unlikely to mothball them all, when they're tried-and-true, proving themselves in countless conflicts in the heavy cruiser role we see them in.  I could accept the argument that they were eventually phased out by the Excelsior class after the introduction of the Ambassador class replaced it as the new battleship/dreadnought role of the fleet, because we don't have a little light cruiser/destroyer that fully seemed to replace the Miranda.  Sure their were ships like the Constellation, but we rarely see it compared to the Miranda.  So we could begin whole new speculation on why that never happened, but lets save that for another day...

Figure I should just put this class listing of what I believe the ships roles resemble, since people have different opinions about it.

Constitution -Battleship (TOS), Heavy Cruiser (TMP)
Miranda -Light Cruiser (TMP), Destroyer (TNG)
Excelsior -Battleship (TMP), Heavy Cruiser/(Light?)Cruiser (TNG) (Even I'm a bit hazy on the latter Era one!)
Ambassador -Battleship (Post TMP/Pre-TNG), Heavy Cruiser (TNG)

posted on October 13th, 2010, 8:45 pm

If that's the case, then the best and only answer that comes to mind is how the Enterprise's armaments were setup.  They were all forward mounted, if I recall correctly

The Studiomodel used for the movies indicates Several non-forward mounted Phasers. They were just not all used. In ST II we saw the Enterprise firing forward and port from the lower saucer-section.
Only torpedoes are forward-only.

posted on October 13th, 2010, 9:44 pm

it's possible the ent refit/ent a had aft torpedoes, just using a smaller launcher than the huge one in the neck. maybe firing a smaller type of torps. we never saw any canon evidence that there were no aft torps, we never saw any canon evidence there were either, so we only have conjecture.

i prefer to think that the ents all had aft torps, just smaller and not as good, as aft defence wasnt a massive concern.

[Tyler]

posted on October 13th, 2010, 9:53 pm

Last edited by Tyler on October 13th, 2010, 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The interior hull markings had 'Launcher 3 & 4' in the neck section pod, though it was confirmed that they didn't exist because the only place they could go is not a launcher, only a grill that's also too small for a single launcher.

Aside from a single visual screw-up, only 1 other place mentions an aft launcher in the A varient, namely Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise. It doesn't mention where it is meant to be though.

posted on October 13th, 2010, 10:13 pm

Enterprise B was a refit version of the Excellsior class. Though you never see another one like it in any of the shows??

I know this thread is about the constitution and miranda, but i'd like to point out that the U.S.S. Lakota (Seen in DS9) was also a refit Excelsior. The studio model of which is the same model used as the Ent-B in generations... but it's still a different ship according to canon. 

posted on October 14th, 2010, 12:21 am

Still pretty sure that the USS Lakota and the USS Enterprise-B were not actually built as Excelsior's and then "refitted" into how they look when we see them.  I'm almost positive they were built ground up the way they look. 

  A "refit" would technically be a ship that was built one way, then altered to become slightly different.

A "Variant" is likely a better term .

posted on October 14th, 2010, 12:40 am

According to Memory Alpha the Ent B and USS Lakota were refits, but I'm a bit sketchy on the movies and can't remember what was said about the Ent B. The USS Enterprise was changed literally into a new ship as a refit, so it's not unheard of by Starfleet 

posted on October 14th, 2010, 10:37 pm

The Lakota was a refit or more a upgrade since there does not appear to be any major physical changes just upgraded shields and weapons, but I though the Ent B was a command cruiser variant since there appears to be older classic Excelsior designed ships in service in the 24th Century.

As far as Connies being used in the 24th Century is there not some evidence of them possibly being in service at the Battle against the Borg, I thought there was a shot of the secondary hull among the wreckage.  Now what we should also consider is that just because a ship is mothballed does not mean it can't re-enter service.  The US Navy did that with their Iowa class battleships all the time since WWII.  Maybe they mothballed them systematically as relations improved with the Klingons but flash points like the Cardasian wars might have caused Starfleet to bring a few back into service. 

posted on October 14th, 2010, 10:51 pm

As far as any TOS era ship being in  service. I  postulate Just because  a ship may be pulled from frontline service  in the Federation  that does not mean that the ship is no longer in service .One it may be sent to a freindly  goverment  as a  local defense patrol or  civilian supply vessel. Two  as it may be still be used in some  federation backwater sector  as a patrol vessel or a training vessel  freeing up  newer Federation ships  for  more hostile sectors  duties.Or the could be in a Black  ops Fleet of  Section 31 Taskforce.

posted on October 15th, 2010, 9:13 am

the lakota has the same appearance as the ent b, both of which look different from the normal excel. They have more impulse engines and bits on the engineering hull.

Just like the connie refit looks different from the connie.

posted on October 20th, 2010, 4:23 am

Clearly Star Fleet would take their mothballed fleet of connies and upgraded them with artillary ranged phasers. They would strap 10-20 quantum torpedo turrets on the saucer section. They would then throw transwarp drive. Then for defense they would strap tons of armor with highdensity shields along with Point defense phaser system to destroy random torpedos. This ship would be as big as a Ktinga but kick enemies' rears like a cube on steroids. I can see starfleet doing that... LOL. Just imagine what they would do with the old NX-01. That ship be slightly bigger then a venture and kill anything.... LOL.

posted on October 20th, 2010, 10:59 pm

Notably, the Lakota only did so well against Defiant because initially, Defiant refused to return fire.  So the Lakota got multiple free volleys off.  If it had been more of a fight from the get go, Lakota would have been space dust quickly.

posted on October 21st, 2010, 12:48 am

Constitution -Battleship (TOS), Heavy Cruiser (TMP)
Miranda -Light Cruiser (TMP), Destroyer (TNG)
Excelsior -Battleship (TMP), Heavy Cruiser/(Light?)Cruiser (TNG) (Even I'm a bit hazy on the latter Era one!)
Ambassador -Battleship (Post TMP/Pre-TNG), Heavy Cruiser (TNG)

Exactly, ships get downgraded as the tech advances.

1on1 with everything but ship equal, a connie would beat a Miranda class.

In the TMP era, The Miranda is a light cruiser, the Enterprise is a heavy cruiser.

That is a VERY important distinction because baring the lighter ship being based on new tech (like the Defiant, which was more of a superheavy destroyer) the bigger ship will outgun thru power.

Phaser power is based on warp core strength. In TMP when they have the unbalanced warp engine problem, the deflector go down, AND an astroid in the way, Decker belays Kirks order to fire phasers on the astroid and uses torps instead. This was because part of the refit had Phasers powered by the warp core, at least in part. Bigger warp core, more powerful phasers.

The refit Enterprise has 4 pure foward dual-mount phasers (dorsal/ventral), plus odds are the port/starboard saucer phasers can target foward as well, or at least the one from the each pairing thats foward anyway, thats 8 phasers.

Yes, torpedos can do immense damage, however Phasers make a big differnce.

So for TMP era in fleet ops stats, the connie would be about 4-5 better in offense, and about 8 better in defence.

As for why the connie wasn't seen later on, and was dropped from use, it never said the class was dropped, just the Enterprise herself.


Enterprise 1701 (no bloody letter, to channel scotty) was destroyed in 2285, 40 years after being launched (2245, according the Star Trek Chronology, which recognized by paramount for some reason, not like they care about it these days .....).

The Enterprise-A wasnt a new ship, as I recall Roddenberry once said it was USS Yorktown, simply rechristened. We also hear of USS Yorktown in TOS:Obsession so that places it as one of the first production run connies.

That'd mean that the Enterprise-A even was old when it was re-launched as the Enterprise, and yes it was refit, however theres only so much refiting you can do to a massive structure before it becomes more efficient to just build a new model, especily when you consider that the connies were in service before phasers. (and dont mention phasers in Enterprise, it isnt cannon, TOS trumps a poorly doen spinoff).

So the first run connies simply were not built for the systems they were running, and had allready been refit many times. At least once to get Phasers sometime prior to Kirk getting command (proably at least 1-2 more sometime between April and Kirk, at that) then to the TMP specs after the 5year mission, with at least one refit between TOS and TMP I'd wager.

Now that said, one would imagine that there WERE newer model connies built, due to the threat of war with the Klingons (which was only averted once Praxis went boom), as when war looms you dont JUST research newer stuff (like the Excelcior) you build proven stuff in mase, which would no doubt lead to light cruisers like the Mirandas being spammed. Fly them in a pack of 2-3, and they can hurt Klingon ships fast, with the Connies providing the heavy punch, and the rare (at the time) Excelcior ships providing heavy fire support against the really big targets.

But basicly, it comes down to logistics. Mirandas are present in massive numbers, and nearly as good in combat in a one for one basis, but cheaper to maintain. Connies are being phased out by the Excelciors, which replace them in the order of battle as well as in exploration, they're bigger and better, and size matters, they can mount bigger sensors, more labs, more guns, etc etc.

Come the Dominion war, both connies and Mirandas would essentially be frigates, with a few likley to have quantum torps even (not many, just a few, it'd make tactical sense, if only as a 'SUPRISE!' factor).

However, come the war, the Connies would be rare and likley used only for deep space exploration and system patrol, while the Mirandas (prodiced in larger numbers, like the Excelcior) would be everywere.


Class wise come Dominion war, I'd rate them as follows (note: upgrade means if a specefic ship is specially  upgraded, like the Lakota was in that DS9 episode, Refit means the ship simply gets basic modernization refits from time to time, no doubt getting one be fore being sent to the war for older ships)

Excelcior class
Upgraded- light cruiser
Refit- heavyish destroyer

Connie
upgraded- heavish destroyer
refit- heavy frigate to light destroyer

Miranda
upgraded- heavy frigate
refit- frigate



Of course, placing them in fleet ops doesnt work, cause fleet ops gets ship classes a tad wrong (Mixed tech Miranda refit anyone ?).

posted on October 21st, 2010, 1:16 am

Of course, placing them in fleet ops doesnt work, cause fleet ops gets ship classes a tad wrong (Mixed tech Miranda refit anyone ?).

  Gets them wrong?

  The Miranda II is a completely new ship built for the present time based on the Miranda I.  It is NOT a refit of old Miranda's.  How is this the wrong class?

posted on October 21st, 2010, 2:23 am

Instead of arguing whether or not hes right ill argue the pretence that hes using to make his statement.

When you design an entire new ship you also get to decide what class of vessle it is.