Miranda vs. Constitution

posted on October 12th, 2010, 2:57 pm

O yeah who needs the old fashioned main guns when this is on the horizon.

Well, technically it can hit you from beyond the horizon

posted on October 12th, 2010, 3:54 pm

Well Miranda classes would definitly be more of a typical light cruiser or cutter (ship used to uphold local law).  These ships would be faster to intercept say pirate raiders with stronger shields because shielding woud not be mass thus does not slow down a ship.  Miranda's hull would not be to the standards of a Constitution, but shielding should be relative.  Phaser power should go with constitution just because it should have more power, but it is hard to say with the miranda. For torpedoes, they both have easy to destroy torpedoe sections. Like in wrath of Khan the miranda class lost all its torpedoes with a single torpedo hit. The constitution lost 1 with a phaser shot acrossed the port torpedo section. The mutara nebula is the only time when things are close to equal. Enterprise won because of experience officers but not experienced crew. Miranda lacked experience in both catergories but had a mad genius.  I would say that Constitution would probably have maybe +1 or = att +2 def +2 SV over the miranda with some type of armor. Side note. In Captain's Honor a constitution was used in TNG during Enterprise D.

posted on October 12th, 2010, 5:18 pm

In Captain's Honor a constitution was used in TNG during Enterprise D.

Huh?

posted on October 12th, 2010, 5:19 pm

It's a novel. Constitution Class have been used in the TNG-Era during several novels.

posted on October 12th, 2010, 5:47 pm

yea and in some novels in between the death of the Big D and Launch of the big E  a Defiant was named Enterprise and used by a cloned Kirk to fight Borg.....................

Some novels are good and some are crap  which is why its very good that novels are not Canon

would you really want a Borg cube as big as Mars (i think) plowing through the sol system crashing into and Assimilating Pluto  then plowing through the SUN and surviving  to be canon?

posted on October 12th, 2010, 6:11 pm

yea and in some novels in between the death of the Big D and Launch of the big E  a Defiant was named Enterprise and used by a cloned Kirk to fight Borg.....................

Some novels are good and some are crap  which is why its very good that novels are not Canon

would you really want a Borg cube as big as Mars (i think) plowing through the sol system crashing into and Assimilating Pluto  then plowing through the SUN and surviving  to be canon?

Oh yeah, the episode where Kirk destroyed the Borg Collective by flipping their wall-toggle off-switch.  I hate that novel.

posted on October 12th, 2010, 7:58 pm

Meh, the novels are a mixed bag. As long as you are willing to accept the good with the bad you shouldnt be disappointed.

Although maybe someone can help... I know it is off topic but I read a novel probably ten years ago now that picks up after generations and talks about how the Farragut was destroyed by the romulans above veridian and then goes on to talk about other stuff and I think kirk lives on for some reason, he isnt killed by soren.

Does anyone remember reading that novel? I lost it and I cant remember the name but it was actually quite good...

posted on October 12th, 2010, 8:07 pm

I havent read many novels. Only Star Trek: New Earth, Q-Zone pt1 (or was it pt2?) and Genesis Wave pt1. I like those ones, but Q-Zone made me dislike Q a little due to the T'Kon.

posted on October 12th, 2010, 8:26 pm

I have always gotten the impression that the Constitution class was the flag ship heavy cruiser of its day and the Miranda was the Destroyer, now it has been mentioned that a WWII destroyer vs a cruiser would result in the Destroyer getting crushed, but that was because the Destroyer lacks the firepower of a cruiser, they both are weak in armor as a cruiser gives up armor for speed.  None of which are applicable in space, the Miranda packs the same "firepower" as a constitution class as in the same caliber phasers and photon torpedo because there not any heavier, since their in space.  The question is power, as a smaller ship the Miranda might lack the ability to recharge her guns as fast as the cruiser, slowing her rate of fire and maintaining her shields as long.  As far as maneuver, does not matter there is no drag in space thus they should move at the same speed, the refit appeared to have a pretty robust impulse engine system so I can imagine the Enterprise getting around pretty well at sub warp just like the Reliant.

Now it has been discussed that the Constitution has to the inferior to the Excelsior.  I don't think we can make that assumption.  The excelsior is a advanced ship but its built bigger to do more things, large science stations and storage to extend her range.  I have never seen anything that suggests its a better warship, if anything since relations with the Klingons improved so much, it might actually be weaker in its original design, since its now primarily a explorer.  Only the DS9 refit seemed to pack a lot of power, maybe speaking to the versatility of the design.  Thus its more advanced and was favored due to its increased versatility but not necessarily a better battle cruiser.  As far as STIV the fact that the Enterprise, which is about to be moth balled takes the pounding it does is a testament to its design.

[Tyler]

posted on October 12th, 2010, 8:34 pm

Last edited by Tyler on October 12th, 2010, 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Excelsior of the TMP-Era was a Battleship, which is typically stronger than a Heavy cruiser. It also had a heavier weapons array, with at least 11 dual phaser arrays on the saucer and 4 photon launchers compared to the Constitution refits 6 dual phasers (these phasers are just the saucer section, each one probably has a few more on the stardrive) and 2 torpedo launchers.

Relations with the Klingons were still pretty bad, and didn't really start to smooth out until the Enterprise-C died.

posted on October 12th, 2010, 8:55 pm

I don't think the Excelsior is ever refereed to as a Battleship.  Though I do concede that I guess it does out gun the Constitution class but not by a huge amount. 

Again it would have been a bad ideal for the Federation to produce Battleships just as its taking down the neutral zone between the themselves and the Klingons.  Its true that only after the C is destroyed did relations warm but the imminent war state was over.  I think that is the same reason you see the Klingon back down from battleship production, ending the D class cruisers production in favor of BoP designs.

I also think that the only reason that the Federation does not continue using the Constitution class is because they always like the newest thing and get rid of old "starship"  not across the board.  I think the long service life of the Miranda is an indication that it was a more pure "battle" ship, thus a low priority.  The Excelsior is in service but seems to serve in secondary roles as well and might be an indication of the neglect and apathy that is around at the beginning of the TNG.  It takes the Borg to really see a change, a wake up call to modernize the whole fleet not just their Starship class.

posted on October 12th, 2010, 9:10 pm

Now it has been discussed that the Constitution has to the inferior to the Excelsior.  I don't think we can make that assumption.  The excelsior is a advanced ship but its built bigger to do more things, large science stations and storage to extend her range.  I have never seen anything that suggests its a better warship, if anything since relations with the Klingons improved so much, it might actually be weaker in its original design, since its now primarily a explorer.  Only the DS9 refit seemed to pack a lot of power, maybe speaking to the versatility of the design.  Thus its more advanced and was favored due to its increased versatility but not necessarily a better battle cruiser.  As far as STIV the fact that the Enterprise, which is about to be moth balled takes the pounding it does is a testament to its design.

Wow, just wow...

I don't understand why there is confusion about the Excelsior being more powerful than the constitution...

There is plenty of evidence to support Excelsior was newer, larger, and faster and better shielded than the Connie. Do you really think the Enterprise B (an Excelsior class) would be inferior to the Constitution class Enterprise A? True... it is debatable in terms of which had more armament but the Connie was classified as a Heavy Cruiser as Tyler pointed out and the Excelsior was a battleship. I'd like to think that some consideration is made to weapons systems for this classification.

posted on October 12th, 2010, 9:13 pm

I don't think the Excelsior is ever refereed to as a Battleship.  Though I do concede that I guess it does out gun the Constitution class but not by a huge amount. 

The Excelsior being a battleship is more of a backstage thing, like most other classes, but can be seen in comparing it to other vessels of the TMP-Era. Not many are given a designation in canon. Memory Alpha also claims it has stronger shields.

Again it would have been a bad ideal for the Federation to produce Battleships just as its taking down the neutral zone between the themselves and the Klingons.  Its true that only after the C is destroyed did relations warm but the imminent war state was over.  I think that is the same reason you see the Klingon back down from battleship production, ending the D class cruisers production in favor of BoP designs.

Though the Klingon/Federation relation weren't as bad as before (though still bad), they also had other threats like the Romulans. The Klingons also didn't end the D-7, they simply replaced it with the more advanced K't'inga Class.

I also think that the only reason that the Federation does not continue using the Constitution class is because they always like the newest thing and get rid of old "starship"  not across the board.  I think the long service life of the Miranda is an indication that it was a more pure "battle" ship, thus a low priority.  The Excelsior is in service but seems to serve in secondary roles as well and might be an indication of the neglect and apathy that is around at the beginning of the TNG.  It takes the Borg to really see a change, a wake up call to modernize the whole fleet not just their Starship class.

It's never been confirmed that they stopped using Constitutions, only that they scrapped the last Constitution Class Enterprise. It's never been shown whether they were out of service or simply not seen. Starfleet doesn't really scrap ships for being 'old', they scrap what doesn't work. The Miranda and Excelsior worked well and were kept around and build in large numbers, but we never saw about the Constitution Class aside from 1 old ship.

posted on October 13th, 2010, 4:25 am

Wow, just wow...

I don't understand why there is confusion about the Excelsior being more powerful than the constitution...

There is plenty of evidence to support Excelsior was newer, larger, and faster and better shielded than the Connie. Do you really think the Enterprise B (an Excelsior class) would be inferior to the Constitution class Enterprise A? True... it is debatable in terms of which had more armament but the Connie was classified as a Heavy Cruiser as Tyler pointed out and the Excelsior was a battleship. I'd like to think that some consideration is made to weapons systems for this classification.

Its not a matter of inferior to the connie but rather the excelsior was build and was the front line star ship during 70 years of relative peace.  Its just not build to be a hard core battleship, where as the Connie Refit clearly demonstrates Starfleet's concerns about war, the huge photon torpedo launchers is my proof of this.  Now the Excelsior is more advanced I am not arguing that so of course its better than the Connie, just not in relative terms, meaning if there had been a additional refit of the connie it would have been a stronger battle ship.  Again I am not arguing that the Excelsior is not a great ship nor was it a weak ship, just not a uber ship in comparison.  I see the two close enough to the point that an experienced connie crew could take a rookie Excelsior crew, but I regress the discussion is the Miranda vs the connie.

In this case, my heart tells me the connie would prevail but considering the role the Miranda was built for it would likely hold its own.  I see it as a dedicated war ship.  The federation generally likes a multi role ship, there "star ship" which was the Connie-->excelsior--->Ambassador and so on.  This is always cutting edge but there are role ships.  The Miranda was a role ship, I think that is why it saw such a long life span, part because its a solid design but also because there are no major conflicts during that time frame.  You don't see a major construction until after the Borg invasion, with the creation of the defiant class.


@ Tyler

Your right about the D7 I meant to say the K'T'inga though I don't consider them two different ships rather the refit to the D7 like the TMP Enterprise.  Though the point holds that that heavy cruiser construct seems to have at least lessened since the Khitomer accord, which makes especial sense for the Empire since they were forced to divert funds to recovery efforts.

Your also right that a few Connies may have remained in service, the Republic is a possible example but  it was a training ship.  As for front line "star ship" service they appear to have moth balled them pretty fast. Considering they were going to moth ball the Enterprise at the end of STVI without a clear replacement makes me wonder what kind of limitations were placed on the Klingon defense forces and Starfleet.  I always figured they might have been some kind of agreement like the Washington battleship treaty reduced the number of battleships prior to WWII.  This is of course speculation.

posted on October 13th, 2010, 4:58 pm

Wow, just wow...

I don't understand why there is confusion about the Excelsior being more powerful than the constitution...

There is plenty of evidence to support Excelsior was newer, larger, and faster and better shielded than the Connie. Do you really think the Enterprise B (an Excelsior class) would be inferior to the Constitution class Enterprise A? True... it is debatable in terms of which had more armament but the Connie was classified as a Heavy Cruiser as Tyler pointed out and the Excelsior was a battleship. I'd like to think that some consideration is made to weapons systems for this classification.

Enterprise B was a refit version of the Excellsior class. Though you never see another one like it in any of the shows?? Anyways the excellsior should be at least equal if not better to the Constituion. But the discussion is on the Miranda and the Constitution. I think really all that matters is Kirk is the one on Enterprise A  and he would at least try to fight anything (youtube search for Wrath of Kirk). Great captains make their ships look great. Picard made galaxy classes look great. Sisco made the defiant look great. No one has made the excellsior look great or the miranda class look great. If Janeway was on a Miranda trying to get home she would make it look like it could take on a fleet on constitutions by its self. Or a half dozen Sovereigns.

Side note. The book that has Kirk come back to life and destroy the borg using a black defiant renamed Enterprise is "Star Trek The Return".