Galaxy class waste or not?

posted on July 27th, 2011, 7:07 pm

B'rels one shot the Bugs too Who's to say DS9 does or doesn't have plot armor by destroying tons of ships - furthermore, any other Federation or other faction's vessels. Debating generalizations based on non-canon information/opinion is just speculation - in the end, the only information that matters to a true trecky is canon stuff supposedly. By now everybody involved in the discussion here should realize how preposterous most of the comments are here, because nothing is comparably based on the arguments presented here.

All you can end up saying is that THE Defiant > Bugs. Bugs > Odyssey. Runabout > Bug. 6 Bugs > Starbase. Earth's Starbase and all starbases that were attacked asides from 257 = apparently weaponless - even 257 is not expressly called to have weapons, and thus it could have had 'ships' protecting it (Runabouts): speculation again. Last but not least, shields only on for particular ships.

posted on July 27th, 2011, 7:31 pm

Thats why I love Babylon 5 
Ships don't change strengh from episode to episode (remember the Galors oneshooting bugs?)

But to come back to the galaxy. The galaxy is like a mixed civilian and military expedition. Humans do this for a long time.
There is military personel to protect the civilians and there are civilians as scientised and civilians that support the other civilians (and the military personal, some more luxury).
That there are children on board. If both parents are on the ship, where would you left your kid. Even today some scientised and explorers take their children with them. And on the galaxy there is even a school.

And if it is essential the military part of the crew can use the ship in a full military use, mostly after the civilians are left behind on a more or less save place (as wie see in DS9, even Earth is not realy save).

So, where is the problem. Starfleet is not like an army. It is an military protecting force that is also doing scientifical stuff. Only in times of war they act like an real army.

[Anonymous]

posted on July 27th, 2011, 7:40 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on July 27th, 2011, 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I called it cannon-fodder because that's exactly what it is. What type of ship it is is irrelevent to what it is; a mass-produced faceless drone the Dominion care nothing for.

indeed they are mass produced and the dominion doesnt care about their loss, but that doesnt mean they are shitty and weak. the fact that they are strong (compared to alpha quadrant stuff) measn the dominion are good at mass producing warships. and if a starbase can handle several bugs then it can certainly handle anything alpha quadrant raiders and pirates have to offer.

Their tech was similar enough to give them a war, even one Starfleet wasn'ttoo bothered about.

the fact that this war was cared about so little shows that the cardies tech wasnt really up to matching the feds. despite the fact that they are designed for war.

We cannot figure out 'by a little logic' because there is nothing to go on; we don't know what guns the base may have, how strong its shields are, how experience the crew are or how any of them compare to a Bugs. We don't even know why they were attacking; to kill or a hit-and-run distraction. We'd have to make up our own stats for it.

we can figure it out. to hit and run or kill is irrelevant. if the station had no guns then 2 bugs would have been enough. if the station had ds9 level guns then 6 bugs wouldnt be enough. that gives us a very general idea, that the station had some defences, easily enough to handle peace time raids from alpha quadrant annoyances like the maquis.

B'rels one shot the Bugs too Who's to say DS9 does or doesn't have plot armor by destroying tons of ships - furthermore, any other Federation or other faction's vessels. Debating generalizations based on non-canon information/opinion is just speculation - in the end, the only information that matters to a true trecky is canon stuff supposedly. By now everybody involved in the discussion here should realize how preposterous most of the comments are here, because nothing is comparably based on the arguments presented here.

they were never explicitly said to be brels, i prefer to think they were kvorts that featured mostly in the dominion war. and yes this is all speculation, but canon is so full of holes and inconsistency that speculation is all that's left. generalisations are the only tools we have to glean more information from shows that were limited to 1 hour time slots - ads.

All you can end up saying is that THE Defiant > Bugs. Bugs > Odyssey. Runabout > Bug. 6 Bugs > Starbase. Earth's Starbase and all starbases that were attacked asides from 257 = apparently weaponless - even 257 is not expressly called to have weapons, and thus it could have had 'ships' protecting it (Runabouts): speculation again. Last but not least, shields only on for particular ships.

more like defiant > all everything.

that ship did have plenty of ablative plot armour. im surprised anyone could see out of the windows with so much plot armour.

bugs > odyssey seemed mainly to be because their fancy weapons went through starfleet shields. presumably they altered the shields for the next episode (set weeks/months later, after sisko gets the defiant). then later they got that crashed bug to study.

and runabout >bug only applies when the runabout has weyoun aboard to tell you where to shoot.

and 6 bugs > starbase only applies to 257, ds9 had many more guns. presumably each station got its own amount of guns, tailored to its needs. i brought up 257 as a station that isnt special and could be used as an example of what a typical starbase would provide.

the spacedock i think is lightly armed, since earth is the centre of a peacful coalition, i doubt earth would be brimming with guns. they would probably use the fleets to defend earth if necessary. oh wait, theres never any ships near earth either  :crybaby:

yeah canon sucks on how earth is defended. that mars perimeter thing just appeared to be three coffin shaped ships trying to attack a cube.

about "all other starbases attacked" were weaponless, well that does make plenty of sense, archaeological expeditions arent exactly tactically important, so wont be high on the list of places to install guns. and these raiders we have heard about attacking starbases, well they would pick the poorly defended places to raid. they arent gonna go raid places that have loads of guns. they dont wanna be blown up.

there are plenty of starbases we didnt hear about getting attacked, these starbases may have had guns to prevent any raids by maquis etc.

believe it or not we were originally discussing the galaxy class, then it went on to whether people would be safe on planets. i take the side that they do, as all the main worries (such as any maquis pirates etc)can be handled by a base assuming it could handle 3 or 4 bugs. the main civilian populations wouldnt be on dusty old planets where everyone is dead and the archaeologists are studying the dead people's society. they'd probably be in places like earth/vulcan/andoria etc.

galors one shotting bugs was silly too. but it would have been a bit of an anti climax if the cardies had switched sides then got slaughtered due to being out of position

nog: captain, the cardassians have switched sides!... oh wait now they're all dead.

maybe i guess the dominion gave the cardassians more tech, so new built galors (we saw them building at the monac shipyards) were more powerful.

[Tyler]

posted on July 27th, 2011, 7:48 pm

Last edited by Tyler on July 27th, 2011, 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

we can figure it out. to hit and run or kill is irrelevant. if the station had no guns then 2 bugs would have been enough. if the station had ds9 level guns then 6 bugs wouldnt be enough. that gives us a very general idea, that the station had some defences, easily enough to handle peace time raids from alpha quadrant annoyances like the maquis.

You still can't because you're still missing the most important thing; there is nothing known about it or what happened. The intention is quite important as it decides what you're planning to do, with hit-and-run being being to cause some damage and run to cause a distraction not to kill you don't need enough ships to kill it. Exactly as Martok did to Dominion bases; wound/annoy, not kill.

Bringing DS9 into it is a terrible idea for the same reason as comparing to the Defiant; it obeys the plot rather than specs or logic and can be beaten by 1 bug if the script says so. And you say using main characters or named ships is unreliable... hypocrite.

posted on July 27th, 2011, 7:52 pm

The point is, as has been alluded to by many people, that all stations/units/factions in Star Trek obey plot first and foremost - all suffer or benefit from plot armor at some point, because the storytellers/directors and what have you did not have that much of an interest of making the particular Star Trek episode/movie a simulator. It's quite impossible to meet each person's expectations of what is accurate because of that.

posted on July 27th, 2011, 7:58 pm

You still can't because you're still missing the most important thing; there is nothing known about it or what happened. The intention is quite important as it decides what you're planning to do, with hit-and-run being being to cause some damage and run to cause a distraction not to kill you don't need enough ships to kill it. Exactly as Martok did to Dominion bases; wound/annoy, not kill.

Bringing DS9 into it is a terrible idea for the same reason as comparing to the Defiant; it obeys the plot rather than specs or logic and can be beaten by 1 bug if the script says so. And you say using main characters or named ships is unreliable... hypocrite.

the intention changes the number of bugs required to completely destroy the station. but imagine 6 bugs trying to "distract" ds9/fleets nearby, they would all die long before they distracted anyone. 6 bugs wouldnt be sent to attack a station (remember that dominion intelligence is quite able and that the dominion were confined to cardassian space at this time - ds9 had been recaptured) if they would die easily without accomplishing anything. the 6 bugs would need to be able to accomplish there task. exactly as martok knew that if he took only 2 bops to that dominion base he would likely accomplish nothing at all. he took the numbers he needed. that dominion base wasnt a frontlines base, explaining its vulnerability to a quintet of warships. i see 257 as similar to that base martok attacked. indicative of non frontlines bases.

The point is, as has been alluded to by many people, that all stations/units/factions in Star Trek obey plot first and foremost - all suffer or benefit from plot armor at some point, because the storytellers/directors and what have you did not have that much of an interest of making the particular Star Trek episode/movie a simulator. It's quite impossible to meet each person's expectations of what is accurate because of that.

yeah sadly canon isnt good enough, and every person expands it differently.

posted on July 27th, 2011, 8:11 pm

How do you know they'd die without meeting a goal when you don't actually know what that goal is? If all they needed to do was keep its attention for a while, would the Dominion (or the ships) care if they died?

Distracting DS9 isn't the same thing as distracting this station, for the plot things often mentioned above.

posted on July 27th, 2011, 8:21 pm

How do you know they'd die without meeting a goal when you don't actually know what that goal is? If all they needed to do was keep its attention for a while, would the Dominion (or the ships) care if they died?

Distracting DS9 isn't the same thing as distracting this station, for the plot things often mentioned above.

we have to assume they have a goal other than dying horribly. and if u assume that the bugs were horribly outmatched then you are saying what im saying, that 257 had ok weapons, and that starbases in general can protect from nearly any peace time threat.

keeping its attention for a while would require matching the station for a while. if it had even 1 torp launcher that ds9 had then those bugs are dead, since the torp launchers could destroy 1 or 2 bugs per volley. so the bugs would need to match the base for a while (to get the bare basics of distracting it). so the station would be equal to about 6 bugs roughly. if we assume they were going to destroy it, then the starbase could handle maybe 4 or 5 bugs, as they wouldnt use more bugs than needed.

posted on July 27th, 2011, 8:33 pm

I think I was talking about was somewhere along the lines of "If such an insignificant number could kill it, it makes Starfleet stations seem weak". Stations like those tend to be command centres for the sector and should be stronger than that (assuming the have weapons, as Dom suggested above, it might have a fleet of runabouts for defence).

Being able to distract it doesn't mean they need to be equal, just capable of doing damage to a redshirt station without DS9's plot launchers. If they wanted it dead, it might have been that weak, or they could even have only been the first wave (a small one).

posted on July 27th, 2011, 8:38 pm

I think I was talking about was somewhere along the lines of "If such an insignificant number could kill it, it makes Starfleet stations seem weak". Stations like those tend to be command centres for the sector and should be stronger than that (assuming the have weapons, as Dom suggested above, it might have a fleet of runabouts for defence).

Being able to distract it doesn't mean they need to be equal, just capable of doing damage to a redshirt station without DS9's plot launchers. If they wanted it dead, it might have been that weak, or they could even have only been the first wave (a small one).

as i said, 6 bugs isnt insignificant, 3 could destroy a shieldless galaxy easy enough, without being destroyed themselves.

this isnt 6 runabouts, its 6 warships.

and theres nothing saying its a command centre for an entire sector. there was nothing saying it was important at all. it had no strategic position, not guarding ships, and was only there to give nog a letter to the nagus.

runabouts by name are meant to move about, not sit and defend. ds9s runabouts werent primarily for defence, they were so they would have a ship or two to move about. runabouts arent a defence force of any significance.

to distract it they would need not to die. which is a measure of equality. if they were outmatched then the station would blow them up. they would need to trade shots with neither side getting destroyed.

[Tyler]

posted on July 27th, 2011, 8:52 pm

Last edited by Tyler on July 27th, 2011, 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

3 killing a Galaxy was a plot thing, which was already brought up before. They only won there because something big was needed to die to show the Dominion was a threat, they were mainly reduced the redshirt of Dominion ships shortly after that.

Nothing says it isn't in charge of the sector, just on a slow day. This just goes back to 'we have nothing to go on but plot and speculation. Also, who said stations only carry 6 Runabout (which are all capable of defence).

Outmatched would mean pointless death, at a disadvantage does not. They'd only need to survive until their unknown goal is completed,and crew experience would make up for a disadvantage.

Shall we agree to disagree? There is nothing but speculation and plot... It's not going anywhere.

posted on July 27th, 2011, 9:31 pm

3 killing a Galaxy was a plot thing, which was already brought up before. They only won there because something big was needed to die to show the Dominion was a threat, they were mainly reduced the redshirt of Dominion ships shortly after that.

i agree there that there was plot issues, escpecailly that the polarons went through starfleet shields. but the odyssey and runabouts didnt even get 1 kill, and they didnt steal a bug until a year or so later. the defiants weapons in the next ep managed to get kills.

also the bug sorta see sawed up and down in strength. when something needed to explode, they were puny (like the die is cast, and sacrifice of angels). but at other times they were strong:

starship down: 2 of them put up a huge fight, beaten by experience, did huge damage to the defiant despite ablative armour.

one little ship: 1 of them disabled the ship badly with a few volleys, despite ablative armour. lets remember that the ablative armour tanked that tractored vorcha fire for ages, and taking fire from a maquis fighter for ages with shields down.

valiant: a similar ship to the defiant, has a firefight for a while (several pulse phaser hits), then 6 quantums are needed to destroy the bug, thats 2 more than a borg escape pod sphere. thats pretty tough.

seems like the bug (like everything in ds9) has plot armour that varies depending on what the plot needs 

Shall we agree to disagree? There is nothing but speculation and plot... It's not going anywhere.

sounds good to me. i need some sleep, got a long day tomorrow.

posted on July 28th, 2011, 12:52 am

Wow, you guys totally derailed the derailed thread....awesome. 

On a side note about starbases and weapons, seems to me if they can equip a station such as DS9 with such tough weapon systems, they would in turn naturally have them on their own. And yes Tyler in war civs would not be on the starships, but my point wasnt about civs anymore but of the dangers of being in space on a starship over being on a planet. And Dom, yes we have heard of some instances where bases were raided but it was never known what kind of bases they were, the could have been civ trading posts, my point is it was never SHOWN on screen what happened so theres no way to tell what transpired. I just find it hard to believe a starbase such as the large "spacedock" ones have absolutly no way to defend themselves, its just insane, and yes in STIII they didnt shoot the Enterprise, but they werent TRYING to shoot the ship, they just wanted to capture it. And as Scotty had already cracked the starbase codes to open the door, not to mention screwed up the Excelsior, he may have also disabled the starbase tractor beams and such. Or just as likely the aformentiond giant plot hole Myles mentioned could be it too. 

[Equinox1701e]

posted on July 28th, 2011, 1:01 am

Last edited by Equinox1701e on July 29th, 2011, 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Also about using DS9 to confirm cannonosity, unfortunately we get screwed on that and this is why these debates happen, cause theres too much inconsistancy, the best example is the fact that even after the Dominions weapons were adapted to starfleet apparntly got used to the idea of not having shields and never turned them on it would seem. Maybe they liked the challenge? Anyway, my point is, yes cannon is cannon, but when it makes no sense it causes people to look at it and try to figure out whats going on and whats the deal. Sure its alot of speculation and such but debate is all part of the fun as long as we dont get too serious about it. I myself, tho i love the Galaxy class, thought it silly to have families on the ship in unexplored space, Tyler doesnt seem to think so. The debate was fun and I saw some interesting points and I hope no one has any hard feelings over anything here. I always like to try to make sense out of everything and some thing unfortunately just make none. Oh well.

posted on August 15th, 2011, 9:51 pm

My thoughts: Starfleet is mostly smaller ships, or whatever exists in numbers, with older ships getting scrapped when they're just not as good as a similarly sized replacement.

So the Miranda get spammed for ages then gets phased out by the Sabre and other small vessels, and by this period the once dreadnought Excelcior is a light cruiser that is spammed.

However, those ships aint intended for the exploration role of Starfleet, sure they can explore but the smaller ships would be kept in closer, they'd explore 'known' space that had been roughly charted years before, while the big ships like the galaxy would go on the long duration missions, one example being the big E's 5 year missions in TOS, it was one of twelve, the biggest and best the federation had, most were kept in fed space, while some went on long duration exploration missions.

Of coruse by the time of DS9, my thoughts are that there would be enough patches of mostly unexplored space even in 'core' federation territory to keep ships busy for a while.