Commander Tucker

[Tyler]

posted on September 16th, 2011, 1:31 pm

Last edited by Tyler on September 16th, 2011, 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

People can neglect one thing by focusing on another quite easily, no matter how bad it is. Would you prefer they got too depressed to work properly? Low morale is a terrible thing in a war, keeping spirits up is important.

Lines can change, but the important thing is they were a long way from the fighting at the time and had been for most of the war. Sacrifice of Angels and the opening battle was amongst the few big events to happen there. Defiant took part in battles, but that only happened when they had orders.

A war that was a long way from them, refer to my previous line about 'keeping morale up'. You don't want a crew in the fight who're getting depressed, do you?

My last post (a recent edit) mentioned this is largely a 'your mileage may vary' thing; some feel you have to lighten the mood so things don't get too depressing (for crew or viewer, take your pick), while others think the arc should be all bloodshed, suffering, trauma and despair. Most importantly, it's a show not a realistic depiction of life in the trenches.

posted on September 16th, 2011, 1:49 pm

People can neglect one thing by focusing on another quite easily, no matter how bad it is. Would you prefer they got too depressed to work properly? Low morale is a terrible thing in a war, keeping spirits up is important.

you dont just switch off a war. look at all the eps where the war is the focus, they always behave consistently, in a way you would expect considering the war is killing loads of their friends and threatening to destroy their entire society. you dont just ignore that, you cant put that aside, its ridiculous. they wouldnt have to be "too depressed to work properly" to be realistic. they werent like that in the other episodes. they were more sombre, more serious. not laughing and joking as much. then baseball comes along and they completely forget the war is going on and its like season 5 again. that was plain ridiculous.

Lines can change, but the important thing is they were a long way from the fighting at the time and had been for most of the war. Sacrifice of Angels and the opening battle was amongst the few big events to happen there. Defiant took part in battles, but that only happened when they had orders.

they were never a long way from the fighting. ds9 was very close to cardassian space, about a day's travel. no matter where the current up-to-the-minute fighting was at, there was always a threat of attack as ships can get there pretty fast. plus they were sitting next to a wormhole that they had no guarantee would stay shut (the prophets didnt promise to keep it closed). the defiant seemed to be assigned on missions only when the plot needed it. you'd expect that such a strong warship capable of destroying multiple enemy warships with ease would be out fighting more. rather than sitting at ds9 docked. the defiant was fast and manoeuvrable, not a defending ship, an attacking ship. it was offensive in many ways.

A war that was a long way from them, refer to my previous line about 'keeping morale up'. You don't want a crew in the fight who're getting depressed, do you?

the war wasnt a long way away, 2 episodes later worf is fighting with the klingons again. 3 eps later and the defiant is routinely helping chintoka, a system at the edge of cardassian space, hence close to ds9 compared to many of the dominion bases. negative emotions are part of a costly war that threatens your usually peace loving species. they should damn well feel bad about it. and they do feel bad about it in nearly every episode where the war is in the foreground. if they had decided to portray the war as not very big and everyone was dealing with it ok, then the baseball ep would have flown a bit better. but they made everyone upset about the war, so you cant then just switch their sadness off for a bottle ep. the episode didnt belong there, it didnt fit with the surrounding eps.

My last post (a recent edit) mentioned this is largely a 'your mileage may vary' thing; some feel you have to lighten the mood so things don't get too depressing (for crew or viewer, take your pick), while others think the arc should be all bloodshed, suffering, trauma and despair. Most importantly, it's a show not a realistic depiction of life in the trenches.

if they werent capable of making a contiguous war, where the characters are portrayed consistently, then they shouldnt have gone for a war at all. characters need to be consistent, they need to behave in 1 episode (roughly) as they behave in surrounding episodes. excluding big character development like nog losing a leg.

posted on September 16th, 2011, 2:22 pm

you dont just switch off a war. look at all the eps where the war is the focus, they always behave consistently, in a way you would expect considering the war is killing loads of their friends and threatening to destroy their entire society. you dont just ignore that, you cant put that aside, its ridiculous. they wouldnt have to be "too depressed to work properly" to be realistic. they werent like that in the other episodes. they were more sombre, more serious. not laughing and joking as much. then baseball comes along and they completely forget the war is going on and its like season 5 again. that was plain ridiculous.

It's not 'switching off' the war, it's taking the attention away from negative feelings so they don't end up sabotaging themselves. Ignore morale and you'll just make things worse later. Would you prefer the Federation fleet is flown by emotional wrecks who've lost hope of winning?

What other episodes were like isn't relevent; the entire point of an episode to lighten the mood is to give people a break.

they were never a long way from the fighting. ds9 was very close to cardassian space, about a day's travel. no matter where the current up-to-the-minute fighting was at, there was always a threat of attack as ships can get there pretty fast. plus they were sitting next to a wormhole that they had no guarantee would stay shut (the prophets didnt promise to keep it closed). the defiant seemed to be assigned on missions only when the plot needed it. you'd expect that such a strong warship capable of destroying multiple enemy warships with ease would be out fighting more. rather than sitting at ds9 docked. the defiant was fast and manoeuvrable, not a defending ship, an attacking ship. it was offensive in many ways.

They were in one place, the war was in another. How close they are to Cardassian space isn't important when it doesn't cause them to be attacked, which they rarely were. Defiant was powerful and that's why it got in the big battles, but there were no big enough battles for an episode to focus on, so patrol it is.

the war wasnt a long way away, 2 episodes later worf is fighting with the klingons again. 3 eps later and the defiant is routinely helping chintoka, a system at the edge of cardassian space, hence close to ds9 compared to many of the dominion bases. negative emotions are part of a costly war that threatens your usually peace loving species. they should damn well feel bad about it. and they do feel bad about it in nearly every episode where the war is in the foreground. if they had decided to portray the war as not very big and everyone was dealing with it ok, then the baseball ep would have flown a bit better. but they made everyone upset about the war, so you cant then just switch their sadness off for a bottle ep. the episode didnt belong there, it didnt fit with the surrounding eps.

if they werent capable of making a contiguous war, where the characters are portrayed consistently, then they shouldnt have gone for a war at all. characters need to be consistent, they need to behave in 1 episode (roughly) as they behave in surrounding episodes. excluding big character development like nog losing a leg.

Doesn't matter if when they're fighting, episode distance is plot-based and says nothing about how close events and places are. Defiant only resupplied Chin'Toka once, which doesn't say anything about how close Chin'Toka is to DS9.

Who is fighting and what the reasons are doesn't change the fact that you need good morale, depression and stress are not good for a war. It's better to keep them occupied and improve morale or you risk going into a battle with a ship crewed by people hindered by stress and depression. Maybe they could haver done a better job with it, but a morale-raising game is still valid.

As I said before (twice), the episode is a matter of opinion.

posted on September 16th, 2011, 2:58 pm

It's not 'switching off' the war, it's taking the attention away from negative feelings so they don't end up sabotaging themselves. Ignore morale and you'll just make things worse later. Would you prefer the Federation fleet is flown by emotional wrecks who've lost hope of winning?

it is exactly switching off the war. when a war is going on you cant ignore it. its just silly on the face of it. in this ep they dont seem to have any knowledge a war is going on. this isnt about patching up morale. they seem completely oblivious to the war. you cant just switch off negative emotions, you deal with them, not act as if they dont exist.

What other episodes were like isn't relevent; the entire point of an episode to lighten the mood is to give people a break.

how characters are portrayed in surrounding episodes is highly relevant when you have a story arc. characters should be portrayed consistently. that is a basic part of telling a story arc. you cant have the characters behave differently without a reason.

giving the audience a break is a not an explanation. if they didnt want to do a war arc, they shouldnt have started one. you cant just switch the war off to give the audience a break, cos then you cheapen the war arc. and thats exactly what happened in ds9, and in enterprise season 3.

They were in one place, the war was in another. How close they are to Cardassian space isn't important when it doesn't cause them to be attacked, which they rarely were. Defiant was powerful and that's why it got in the big battles, but there were no big enough battles for an episode to focus on, so patrol it is.

you are making little sense here. i never said they were in the same place as the battles, i said they were near, considering the speed of fleets in ds9. the fact that they are close to where the battles are is of vital importance. as even though they arent in the middle of a battle, the fact that warp capable starships are so mobile means that they are actually very close to the front line. the enemy can be at ds9 in a short amount of time. ds9 was captured, that proves how vulnerable it is. its the closest station to cardassian space, the closest station to the fighting.

the defiant wasnt even shown as doing patrol during these missions. everything happened at ds9, as if ds9 was isolated from the rest of the universe. the defiant just sat there doing nothing important.

Doesn't matter if when they're fighting, episode distance is plot-based and says nothing about how close events and places are. Defiant only resupplied Chin'Toka once, which doesn't say anything about how close Chin'Toka is to DS9.

actually the distances here (only the distance between ds9 and cardassian space) stayed rather consistent in ds9. all we know is that they are close. cardassian ships can get to ds9 quickly, bajor is near cardassian space, and used to be part of cardassian space. klingon fleets can get from ds9 to cardassia prime fast. a funky thing sent a solar ship from bajor system to cardassian space in a short while. even at warp 9, that means bajor and cardassian space are close. these distances are well known. ds9 was close to cardassian space. and chintoka was on the edge of cardassian space, therefore ds9 is perfectly valid as a target. especially seeing as the dominion attacked the starbase in valiant, and the coridan dilithium miners.

Who is fighting and what the reasons are doesn't change the fact that you need good morale, depression and stress are not good for a war. It's better to keep them occupied and improve morale or you risk going into a battle with a ship crewed by people hindered by stress and depression. Maybe they could haver done a better job with it, but a morale-raising game is still valid.

i agree you need some morale in a war. depression and stress however are commonplace in a war, especially considering these people loved peace and dont have costly wars often, they would be less used to it, and easily suffer from these things.

morale raising is one thing, this episode was far from it. it was ridiculous. what they were doing wasnt dealing with their emotions, their characters were written for this ep as if they didnt even HAVE these emotions. if they had written the ep better it would have been half way to good, but then they wouldnt really have time for baseball or training. the better solution would be to put the episode (unchanged) outside of the war arc, it doesnt belong in the war arc. war belongs in the war arc.

posted on September 16th, 2011, 3:36 pm

it is exactly switching off the war. when a war is going on you cant ignore it. its just silly on the face of it. in this ep they dont seem to have any knowledge a war is going on. this isnt about patching up morale. they seem completely oblivious to the war. you cant just switch off negative emotions, you deal with them, not act as if they dont exist.

They knew the war was there, given they all knew why the Vulcan ship was there. After that, they were distracted by the game. It's either find a way to counter them (baseball in this case), or they just keep building up.

how characters are portrayed in surrounding episodes is highly relevant when you have a story arc. characters should be portrayed consistently. that is a basic part of telling a story arc. you cant have the characters behave differently without a reason.

giving the audience a break is a not an explanation. if they didnt want to do a war arc, they shouldnt have started one. you cant just switch the war off to give the audience a break, cos then you cheapen the war arc. and thats exactly what happened in ds9, and in enterprise season 3.

Who mentioned characters? I'm talking about episodes being doom'n'gloom.

Giving the audience a break is an equally valid reason. Not everyone handles constant doom'n'gloom as well as others, they will need a chance for a breather. It doesn't 'cheapen' the arc to do what  pretty much amounts to a filler episode every so often, you can ignore those episodes if you don't want to see them because they have no impact on the arc. You can't switch off the war, but you can distract from it. It's a series, so it can take a break that reality can't.

you are making little sense here. i never said they were in the same place as the battles, i said they were near, considering the speed of fleets in ds9. the fact that they are close to where the battles are is of vital importance. as even though they arent in the middle of a battle, the fact that warp capable starships are so mobile means that they are actually very close to the front line. the enemy can be at ds9 in a short amount of time. ds9 was captured, that proves how vulnerable it is. its the closest station to cardassian space, the closest station to the fighting.

I said DS9 was not in the area as the battles, and you countered with 'they were involved with battles'. Something that does not prove they were close because ships are mobile and fast, meaning the fights could have taken place many lightyears away. Being close to the line doesn't change that they're still behind the line, nothing says how close though (we don't actually know where the lines are most of the time).

the defiant wasnt even shown as doing patrol during these missions. everything happened at ds9, as if ds9 was isolated from the rest of the universe. the defiant just sat there doing nothing important.

Defiant usually patrols, when it's not just means it doesn't have any orders yet. They can't just go out and attack whenever they feel like it, members of a military usually attack where they're told.

actually the distances here (only the distance between ds9 and cardassian space) stayed rather consistent in ds9. all we know is that they are close. cardassian ships can get to ds9 quickly, bajor is near cardassian space, and used to be part of cardassian space. klingon fleets can get from ds9 to cardassia prime fast. a funky thing sent a solar ship from bajor system to cardassian space in a short while. even at warp 9, that means bajor and cardassian space are close. these distances are well known. ds9 was close to cardassian space. and chintoka was on the edge of cardassian space, therefore ds9 is perfectly valid as a target. especially seeing as the dominion attacked the starbase in valiant, and the coridan dilithium miners.

Doesn't mean they're in danger of an attack though, the nearby area being Dominion-controlled doesn't mean they have ships in the area since most would be busy elsewhere. Though DS9 being called 'behind the lines' would imply Starfleet's front lines might cover the area between DS9 and Cardassia.

i agree you need some morale in a war. depression and stress however are commonplace in a war, especially considering these people loved peace and dont have costly wars often, they would be less used to it, and easily suffer from these things.

morale raising is one thing, this episode was far from it. it was ridiculous. what they were doing wasnt dealing with their emotions, their characters were written for this ep as if they didnt even HAVE these emotions. if they had written the ep better it would have been half way to good, but then they wouldnt really have time for baseball or training. the better solution would be to put the episode (unchanged) outside of the war arc, it doesnt belong in the war arc. war belongs in the war arc.

Morale-raising is why I like this episode where it is, however I have admitted it could have done better. I still don't believe it cheapens the arc as it's still pretty much filler in that it can be simply ignored without interferring in the war, it's only one episode so it wouldn't lose much DS9-time.

The fact that sress and depression is common in war is why they need a way to deal with it, maybe if they'd done a bit more to acknowledge the war in the first part.

posted on September 16th, 2011, 4:18 pm

They knew the war was there, given they all knew why the Vulcan ship was there. After that, they were distracted by the game. It's either find a way to counter them (baseball in this case), or they just keep building up.

they knew the war was there? really? none of the dialogue or acting gives any evidence for that. this is my point, they should know the war is there. but the episode says differently. they act as if there is no war. the only way we know there's a war going on is a couple throw away lines.

Who mentioned characters? I'm talking about episodes being doom'n'gloom.

characters are an important part of episodes. if surrounding episodes are "doom and gloom" because the characters are reacting to a really serious war, then its silly for them to suddenly be cheery and having a laugh.

Giving the audience a break is an equally valid reason. Not everyone handles constant doom'n'gloom as well as others, they will need a chance for a breather. It doesn't 'cheapen' the arc to do what  pretty much amounts to a filler episode every so often, you can ignore those episodes if you don't want to see them because they have no impact on the arc. You can't switch off the war, but you can distract from it. It's a series, so it can take a break that reality can't.

giving the audience a break is not valid. it does cheapen an arc to have an episode that plain doesnt fit. the epispode can go somewhere else and work fine. the central characteristic of an arc is the flow between episodes, the continuity of story. when you suddenly break up the arc with filler bottle eps, you really hurt the arc. every episode of the arc should fit and should have at least some impact on the arc. that is the defining method of arc storytelling. if they werent prepared to tell a dark arc story, they shouldnt have tried.

I said DS9 was not in the area as the battles, and you countered with 'they were involved with battles'. Something that does not prove they were close because ships are mobile and fast, meaning the fights could have taken place many lightyears away. Being close to the line doesn't change that they're still behind the line, nothing says how close though (we don't actually know where the lines are most of the time).

you are misquoting me very badly here, you will not find any quote where i say "they were involved with battles".  as i said before, the battles arent very far away, the dominion have shown their ability to attack ds9 and other targets in similar areas before. ds9 isnt far from enemy ships. plus it sits next to a wormhole that may or may not be shut forever. its the closest base to the enemy. ds9 is not that safe. the war should be on everyone's minds.

the fact that the ships are so fast is what implies ds9 is "close" to battle. close here isnt a measure of distance, its a measure of how easily ships can get to ds9 from the cardassian border, which is about a day. thats pretty damn close.

Defiant usually patrols, when it's not just means it doesn't have any orders yet. They can't just go out and attack whenever they feel like it, members of a military usually attack where they're told.

whoops, made a typo, i meant to say the defiant wasnt involved in patrol during this EPISODE. i agree the defiant is good for patrol/escort duty. but in this ep, they are doing nothing for a protracted period. i agree they shouldnt go do anything without orders, im saying that the lack of orders to go do something is ridiculous. sisko needs a couple weeks to engage in a pointless ego trip baseball match, so starfleet doesnt give him anything to do. i mean there's not a  war on, starfleet doesnt need the defiant (!)

Doesn't mean they're in danger of an attack though, the nearby area being Dominion-controlled doesn't mean they have ships in the area since most would be busy elsewhere. Though DS9 being called 'behind the lines' would imply Starfleet's front lines might cover the area between DS9 and Cardassia.

they're always in danger of an attack. coridan probably thought it was protected being away from the main battles, but it got raided. that starbase in valiant got attacked too. starships can travel really fast in star trek, so ds9 is most definitely in danger of an attack. the dominion managed to take it once before. starfleet leaves a fleet around ds9 after sacrifice of angels. ds9 is the closest starfleet base to the dominion, and the dominion really really want to get ships through the wormhole, sisko particularly knows the dominion want to control the alpha quadrant exit of the wormhole. this all means that the ds9 crew should very much consider the war as important, they shouldnt feel they are too far away to be bothered. even earth got sneak attacked once, granted that wouldnt work a second time. so presumably personnel in the core worlds like earth and vulcan might feel like they are too far away to worry.

I still don't believe it cheapens the arc as it's still pretty much filler in that it can be simply ignored without interferring in the war, it's only one episode so it wouldn't lose much DS9-time.

The fact that sress and depression is common in war is why they need a way to deal with it, maybe if they'd done a bit more to acknowledge the war in the first part.

i dont think you can ignore episodes from an arc. otherwise its not really an arc, its just a season of ds9. the whole point of the arc is for continuity, flow. a ride along with the story. filler eps just completely stop your ride. then make you start all over again on a new ride. bottle eps are fine, star trek has loads of them, many shows do. but if they want to do an arc, they should do an arc, and not put bottle eps in the middle. put bottle eps on their own. every episode needs to contribute to an arc for it to flow.

posted on September 16th, 2011, 7:32 pm

well actually the last few eps of enterprise we not part of the original plot and were made for fun and a way to end the tv show.

I have never seen that stated anywhere or even mentioned on the DVD Sets. Not even the Official Star Trek Website have I heard such a thing.

Where did you find that?

posted on September 16th, 2011, 9:26 pm

morale raising is one thing, this episode was far from it. it was ridiculous. what they were doing wasnt dealing with their emotions, their characters were written for this ep as if they didnt even HAVE these emotions. if they had written the ep better it would have been half way to good, but then they wouldnt really have time for baseball or training. the better solution would be to put the episode (unchanged) outside of the war arc, it doesnt belong in the war arc. war belongs in the war arc.

While I agree the episode was silly enough that Alan Smithee could have almost been the director (google him if you dont catch the refrence) I'd like to point out that it IS entirely reasonable for them to have time for the game,  I mean when I was in Iraq folks had pick up games and what not, and while it's not really a fair comparison to co use the two, the fact is that the Vulcan ship was stuck there for repairs, and the station crew were there because that was their duty assignment, and with the ease of getting the field thru the holosuite, having a pickup game would be easily done.

However it would have really been better if Sisko just told the Vulcan captain to piss off and prehaps have the episode have a b-story of the Vulcan crew antagonizing the DS9 crew or something.

On the other hand, what would have made the game fit PERFECTLY in the war arc is if they had encouraged Quark to run bets on it, with the latnum going to wounded starfleet personel and their families and what not

Jetnova, Cyrax was 'right' to an extent, I also remember reading somewhere that the whole holodeck ending was basically intended to be a tie-in to the rest of trekdom, but without actually ending the plot in the event that the series somehow was picked up again (IE: trip would have turned out to have been alive or something). I could also be misremembering a tad, was something I read once years ago.

Thankfully however, they put that show out of our misery.cy

posted on September 17th, 2011, 11:48 pm

I feel ENT was cheaply done, like DS9 was. Both series could've been so much better. But since this is a ENT tread, the series was really coming to be something great, season 4 really kicked this off when Manny Coto took the reins and directed it in a positive direction and season 5 would've been awesome. I know this will never happen but I personally feel that the series should be renewed, but after what is it now, 7, 10 years? I doubt it will.

I liked the series so much that I am even making an ENT era mod to show my appreciation to a series that never really got a shot.

posted on September 18th, 2011, 12:00 am

It got a shot, but it was done horribly.

Now if they were to take Ent and reboot it properly, I would approve.

posted on September 23rd, 2011, 1:13 pm

I think the Ent idea was strange in the first place, just an unnecessary try to jump on the Star Wars Hype of doing prequels. That's the same problem with ST XI btw, I want to know what's happening after what I've seen until now. I don't care that much about what was before, especially when it contradicts to the later history.

Anyway, season 4 of Ent was great, as most ST series became good with the 4th season. Before there were some nice episodes, but on the whole it couldn't repet the epicness of DS9. Voy couldn't do that as well, but that was a result of the main story. You can't make story arcs if you fly in one direction all the time.

@Myles/Tyler
I didn't read your whole discussion, but I'd say they put in episodes like the baseball one to also give the fans something to laugh about. War sucks, you don't want to see that all the time. That's exactly why I hate the new BSG series so much. It's only war all the time, all the characters are depressed, traiters or war criminals, the whole series sucks because there is noone to identify with.
In DS9 the war was in the background since the 3rd season already, but they didn't stretch it too much, giving them space for more interesting stories.