Since the gun debate thread ran wayyyyyyyy off topic.....

posted on April 24th, 2011, 4:34 pm

Reducing the availability of firearms only pushes criminals and demented individuals to use different weapons such as bombs, knives, etc.

I would always use the weapons having the highest efficiency in harming others, depending on the situation of course...

Think of the available weapons as tools. Forbid those tools with the highest chances for harming others seriously. Once this is done enforcement of the law is in the hand of the executive which is elected (in some way) by the people. If the gov can't handle law enforcement, you simply elected the wrong people or the system you live in is screwed.

Is the system in the US screwed? Do you want to live without government?

[ewm90]

posted on April 24th, 2011, 10:21 pm

Last edited by ewm90 on April 24th, 2011, 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I will say that my position is that personal freedoms should be protected as much as possible.
Guns aren't allowed in schools.  It's a matter of enforcement

Well I am glad you do draw a line. :-/

There are some crazy people out there, I do not think giving guns out is a safe idea. Why not only give guns to law enforcement.

The concept because it legal its ok. In afghanistan its ok to stone woman, dose this meen if you when there you may partake in stoning a woman?

Clarifying:

What I was pointing to be for is there is a context we all operate out of ether we know what it is or it operates you.

One of the main things that makes us different from animals is free chose. If your not choosing where you stand in life, or you operate out of feelings like a animal.

I was asking you what is where you stand, summed up in 2- 10 words, where you chose to operate your life from.

Guns aren't allowed in schools.  It's a matter of enforcement. 

While I can't disagree with the increased destructive capability of firearms over blades; I'm not sure making them illegal to own will solve that problem.  Pipe bombs are illegal, yet many are made and used in relation to school/childhood crimes.  In fact, it is may be that disturbed children move even more into bomb-making should they not have firearms available (this is a weak argument, just a thought to ponder).

I say we tackle the more destructive of societal issues first before jumping on the low-risk issues.  The only problem, people don't like to tackle the really tough issues like excessive drinking (way more injuries and fatalities associated with that globally), natural disasters, rogue penguin attacks, etc.

I'm not opposed to limiting the type of firearms available or changing the amount of training required.  But I think we should really make sure we are addressing the root cause of the problem rather than the symptoms. 

Anyways, I resign myself to the fact that the majority of this community comes from a completely different frame of political reference.  I'll go back to my hole now.  

posted on April 25th, 2011, 4:30 am

There are some crazy people out there, I do not think giving guns out is a safe idea. Why not only give guns to law enforcement.

Because quite honestly the cops aren't always around or they may not get there in time and a firearm may be the only difference between me dieing and being able live to a ripe old age.

@Drrr
Right i agree that weapons are a tool that people can use to hurt someone else. However we have already baned the most dangerous forms of weapons that being things like automatics and grenades and grenade launchers. And yes guns are dangerous but so are a lot of other things it can be rather humbling to thing of how fragile our existence is.
One other thing i dont know if i have mentioned this before but if you think that you could just pick up a gun and be able to effectively use it your wrong it requires practice just like any thing else.

posted on April 25th, 2011, 11:34 am

you do get any thing you give to "good" people "bad" people get too. So by arming your self your not making it more safe your upping the weaponry.

Because quite honestly the cops aren't always around or they may not get there in time and a firearm may be the only difference between me dieing and being able live to a ripe old age.

@Drrr
Right i agree that weapons are a tool that people can use to hurt someone else. However we have already baned the most dangerous forms of weapons that being things like automatics and grenades and grenade launchers. And yes guns are dangerous but so are a lot of other things it can be rather humbling to thing of how fragile our existence is.
One other thing i dont know if i have mentioned this before but if you think that you could just pick up a gun and be able to effectively use it your wrong it requires practice just like any thing else.

posted on April 28th, 2011, 8:02 pm

Of the two regeimes  in the   from  1900- 2000 century that had severely restricted  its citizens rights to posses firearms with in a few years   they terroized its citizens. The leaders...  Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin.  Of the one in the 19 century that restricted its citizens  to posses  and abbrogated thoze citizens rights wound up losing  a vast  portions of its holdings aka what is now know as  Texas , California, New Mexico and Arizona.   The same thing goes for the  former British colony  of America ,when it citizens are treated as Chattle .  A club, pitchfork is no match for a  cannon or musket. that is why some seek to restrict its peoples ownership of said  defense.

Actually, you are wrong. Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia are not the only countries with highly restrictive laws.

In the 1920s, General Primo de Rivera launched a coup that ended decades of political alternancy of the two parties with the implicit consent of king Alfonso XIII. The General established strict limits to gun private ownership and set himself as dictator. When he was overthrown, along with the king, and the Spanish second Republic was formed, that law was one that didn't change with the new regime.

When General Franco established himself as Generalísimo after winning the Spanish Civil War, he put stricter laws on gun ownership and made mandatory to have an ID card at the age of 14, while majority of age was at 21. Women, of course, were considered second class citizens, unable to to think by themselves, and needed written consent, signed by a "responsible" male (father, husband, even a younger brother) to even take driving lessons.

One would think that with the death of the dictator, those laws would be altered. But besides the ones concerning women, gun control was made even more strict, and ID cards are still mandatory from age 14.

In Spain you need to obtain a license specific for your purpose, be it hunting, sports or collecting. To get that license, you must pass a psychophysical test (yes, even for collecting guns). Once you have your license, you can purchase guns inside the limitations of your license. BUT every gun you buy gets a special form, called "guide", which details the "life" of the gun itself, modifications, previous owners, infractions and crimes commited with it. Oh, and with any gun you purchase you have to go to a police precinct to physically get it.

You have a yearly allowance of 1000 bullets/shells for every caliber (not gun) you have, AND you cannot have more than 100 (one hundred) bullets at a time in your house. If you reload your bullets, you have to get a special license for reloading, and another one for storing reloading materials.

Handguns are only allowed for sporting purposes, license type "F", and you cannot have more than ten gun under the "F" license, inluding long and handguns.

The funny part comes with the limitations. Any weapons whose caliber is considered a "war caliber" are illegal to own, but the definition of "war caliber" is set by bureaucrats. You can have a CETME (semi-auto, obviously) which is the Spanish Army assault rifle, but you cannot have a hunting rifle if the caliber is considered "war caliber".

Oh, another interesting point, in Spain, martial arts knowledge is an aggravant before a judge. It may send you to jail even if the sentence confirms you acted on self defense.

Also, recently, gun owners managed to avoid the ratification of an even stricter, already Congress and Senate approved, gun control law, because the intended objective of said law was to get closer to EU standards, and actually, our legislation needs to be looser to comply with EU laws.

Airsoft guns are currently illegal to carry and use outdoors.

Be careful when quoting Heinlein. He hated pacifists:

Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

- John Joseph Bonforte,"Double Star"

Those who refuse to support and defend a state have no claim to protection by that state. Killing an anarchist or a pacifist should not be defined as “murder” in a legalistic sense. The offense against the state, if any, should be “Using deadly weapons inside city limits,” or “Creating a traffic hazard,” or “Endangering bystanders,” or other misdemeanor. However, the state may reasonably place a closed season on these exotic asocial animals whenever they are in danger of becoming extinct. An authentic buck pacifist has rarely been seen off Earth, and it is doubtful that any have survived the trouble there...regrettable, as they had the biggest mouths and the smallest brains of any of the primates. The small-mouthed variety of anarchist has spread through the Galaxy at the very wave front of the Diaspora; there is no need to protect them. But they often shoot back.

I cannot help but agree. If you are not willing to kill AND die for your country, why does it have to protect you?

Which brings another Heinlein quote:

Love your country, but never trust its government.

posted on April 29th, 2011, 2:23 am

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
- Abraham Lincoln

If you never trust the government there is no america. The America we love only is, because of the government.

Love your country, but never trust its government. - it like saying: i love tea but hate water. Or I love woman but I dont like people.

Trust is what will make this country work with out it, we falter and lose our freedoms.

posted on April 29th, 2011, 2:54 am

There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty. - John Adams

Three groups spend other people's money: children, thieves, politicians. All three need supervision. - Dick Armey

To blindly trust government is to automatically vest it with excessive power. To distrust government is simply to trust humanity - to trust in the ability of average people to peacefully, productively coexist without some official policing their every move. The State is merely another human institution - less creative than Microsoft, less reliable than Federal Express, less responsible than the average farmer husbanding his land, and less prudent than the average citizen spending his own paycheck. - James Bovard

posted on April 29th, 2011, 3:53 am

See, I don't need to enter into debates when I have Clint already saying what I want to say.

But since we're quoting famous Americans who are shaping or have shaped our country: 

Nancy Pelosi on the economy: "every month that we do not have an economic recovery package 500 million Americans lose their jobs."

Nancy Pelosi on legislation: "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it."

John Conyers on the Health Care Bill, which he voted for: "I love these members, they get up and say, ‘Read the bill ... What good is reading the bill if it's a thousand pages and you don't have two days and two lawyers to find out what it means after you read the bill?'"

Sheryl Crow on Environmentalism: "I propose a limitation be put on how many sqares [sic] of toilet paper can be used in any one sitting. Now, I don't want to rob any law-abiding American of his or her God-given rights, but I think we are an industrious enough people that we can make it work with only one square per restroom visit, except, of course, on those pesky occasions where 2 to 3 could be required.'"

Senator Harry Reid on Barack Obama: "...light-skinned," and with "no negro dialect."

Joe Biden to Missouri State Senator Chuck Graham, who is wheelchair bound: "stand up ... Chuck, stand up, Chuck, let 'em see you!"

Remember folks, trust your government.  And never question it.

Ok, Dircome.  Minus 15 internets for posting a "debate thread" on the internet, the surrogate mother of All Understanding and Enlightened discourse.

If it starts to get out of hand I will have it locked.

And minus another 15 for not keeping your promise.

posted on April 29th, 2011, 4:35 am

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
- Abraham Lincoln

If you never trust the government there is no america. The America we love only is, because of the government.

Love your country, but never trust its government. - it like saying: i love tea but hate water. Or I love woman but I dont like people.

Trust is what will make this country work with out it, we falter and lose our freedoms.

America has no government, it was conquered by private interests long ago.

posted on April 29th, 2011, 5:24 am

Ok, Dircome.  Minus 15 internets for posting a "debate thread" on the internet, the surrogate mother of All Understanding and Enlightened discourse.

And minus another 15 for not keeping your promise.

hehe this isnt mine anymore its torkas.

posted on May 2nd, 2011, 12:12 pm

I've been too drunk to fan the flames.

Oh also, it seems starter pistols (IE: the kind used at a track to tell the runners to run) are going to be illegal in england.

They were being turned into real guns.

I wonder whats next.... (or will they just ban going to non-approved websites next.... knowledge is dangerous afterall, you may learn and agree with something *gasp* offenseve!)

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 8:11 pm

When Adams Spoke that he was talking about the British occupation, Context matters.

Dick Armey I dont have allot of admiration for him.

---thats going no ware---
If you wont to find evidence for it I share you can, If you wont to get to the boddom of some thing I dont think you can with coming from I am gonna prove my point.

I could race a argument about any thing in that mind set and not learn a thing EVER.

To blindly trust government is to automatically vest it with excessive power. To distrust government is simply to trust humanity - to trust in the ability of average people to peacefully, productively coexist without some official policing their every move. The State is merely another human institution - less creative than Microsoft, less reliable than Federal Express, less responsible than the average farmer husbanding his land, and less prudent than the average citizen spending his own paycheck. - James Bovard

If you live in a totalitarian system maybe but our government, is the people.

There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty. - John Adams

Three groups spend other people's money: children, thieves, politicians. All three need supervision. - Dick Armey

To blindly trust government is to automatically vest it with excessive power. To distrust government is simply to trust humanity - to trust in the ability of average people to peacefully, productively coexist without some official policing their every move. The State is merely another human institution - less creative than Microsoft, less reliable than Federal Express, less responsible than the average farmer husbanding his land, and less prudent than the average citizen spending his own paycheck. - James Bovard

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 9:12 pm

Wasn't this about guns?

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 9:14 pm

no it was about 17 dollars

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 10:09 pm

Whats at the hart of the gun debate is, lack of trust with is what I am talking too.

Wasn't this about guns?