Since the gun debate thread ran wayyyyyyyy off topic.....

posted on April 23rd, 2011, 10:05 pm

Yes, let's let one or two statistical aberrations determine public policy!  Before we go after hunting weapons, let's target real killers like drunk drivers, trial lawyers, and rogue penguins. 

posted on April 23rd, 2011, 10:36 pm

There is a resign why meny schools have mettle detectors.

If you relay think guns are safe after the shooting of gabrielle giffords I dont think even god can help open your mind.

MAJOR SCHOOL SHOOTINGS IN THE UNITED STATES SINCE 1997
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1  Updated 12/22/2010
Marinette, WI ٠ 11/28/10.  A 15-year-old student shot a film projector and held 23 classmates
and a teacher hostage for about five hours at Marinette High School.  The shooter had two
pistols, knives and more than 200 rounds of ammunition.  He fatally shot himself when police
broke down the classroom door.
1
Selma, AL ٠ 10/25/10.  Shots were fired into a classroom at Payne Elementary School from
outside after school was over for the day. A teacher was in the classroom but was unharmed.
Nobody was injured.
2
Carlsbad, CA ٠ 10/8/10.  A man jumped the fence at Kelly Elementary School and opened fire
on children playing outside at lunchtime.  When his gun jammed, nearby construction workers
tackled him.  Two girls, ages six and seven, were injured.   Neighbors report the shooter often
screamed obscenities and racial epithets, and that the police had been called repeatedly.
3
Elizabeth City, NC ٠ 10/3/10.  A student fatally shot another student in the victim’s dorm room
at Mid-Atlantic University on Sunday afternoon.  The University said the shooting stemmed
from a conflict between the two individuals.
4
Austin, TX ٠ 9/28/10.  A 19-year-old student fatally shot himself in the main library at the
University of Texas with an AK-47 assault rifle.  He ran through parts of the campus and fired
several shots into the air before entering the library and killing himself.
5
Columbia, SC ٠ 9/22/10.  A student confronted and shot at a resource officer at Socastee High
School.  The officer sustained minor injuries as the bullet hit the officer after ricochet off a wall.  
The student, working with another student, had also planted pipe bombs around the school.  The
bombs were removed and disarmed by police without injury.
6
Moss Bluff, LA ٠ 9/16/10.  A student fatally shot himself at St. Theodore/Holy Family School at
the start of the school day.
7
                                               
1
Answers sought in northern Wis. hostage situation, ASSOCIATED PRESS, 2-Dec-10.        
2
Selma Police Look for School Shooting Suspect, WSFA - TV 12 MONTGOMERY, 26-Oct-10.        
3
Workers hailed for halting school shooting suspect, ASSOCIATED PRESS, 11-Oct-10.        
4
Police: NC Bible college student killed in dorm, ASSOCIATED PRESS, 4-Oct-10.        
5
Russell Goldman Gunman at University of Texas Austin Identified as Sophomore Math Major Colton Tooley, ABC
NEWS, 28-Sep-10.        
6
Susanne M. Schafer, SC principal: 2nd student questioned in shooting, ASSOCIATED PRESS, 22-Sep-10.        
7
Kate Mundy, Bishop Releases Statement on School Shooting, KATC- TV 3 LAFAYETTE, LA, 16-Sep-10.        1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC  20005 i(202) 898-0792 iFAX (202) 371-9615
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2  Updated 12/22/2010
Las Cruces, NM ٠ 9/7/10.  A 17-year-old fired a handgun during a fight between several
teenagers during a volleyball game at Las Cruces High School.
8
Detroit, MI ٠ 9/7/10.  A 14-year-old girl and a 16-year-old boy were shot outside Mumford
High School on their first day of the school.  A fight had began inside the school but spilled
outside.
9
Omaha, NB ٠ 8/18/10.  A 15-year-old fired a gun on a school bus on the way home from Burke
High School.  Nobody was injured.  Officials were unaware of the incident until it was reported
by a parent the next day.  A 16-year-old was found with a gun at the same school the next day.
10
South Gate, CA ٠ 5/18/10.  A 17-year-old shot a 15-year-old student in the abdomen at South
Gate High School.  The shooter attended a neighboring high school.
11
Portsmouth, VA ٠ 4/29/10.  A student entered Wilson High School through a back door and
fired several shots inside the school.  Nobody was injured.
12
Baton Rouge, LA ٠ 3/23/10.  Four middle school students were arrested for bringing a gun onto school
grounds and firing it near a practice field. No one was injured during the incident.
13
Columbus, OH ٠ 3/9/10.  A disgruntled Ohio State University maintence employee, who had recently
been fired from his job, opened fire in a campus facilities building, killing a maintenance manager and
wounding another co-worker before he turned the gun on himself.   The shooter had been in prison
previously.
14
Littleton, CO ٠ 2/23/10.  A 32-year-old man shot at students as they left Deer Creek Middle
School at the end of the day.  Two students were injured before a math teacher tackled the
shooter.  The shooter used his father's rifle in the attack.
15
DeKalb, IL ٠ 2/19/10.  One student was injured and another placed into police custody after a shooting
on the campus of Northern Illinois University.
16
Huntsville, AL ٠ 2/12/10.  A professor opened fire 50 minutes into at a Biological Sciences Department
faculty meeting at the University of Alabama, killing three colleagues and wounding three others.   The
shooter had a history of violence: she shot and killed her brother in 1986, was possibly involved in an
attempted mail bombing, and was convicted of disorderly conduct, and assault and battery in an incident
                                               
8
3 More Teens Arrested In Las Cruces High School Shooting Incident, KVIA – TV 7 EL PASO, 14-Sep-10.        
9
Mumford High School Shooting: 2 Students Shot In Detroit, HUFFINGTON POST, 7-Sep-10.        
10
Gun Fired Aboard Omaha School Bus, KETV – TV 7 OMAHA, 19-Aug-10.        
11
Teen held for LA-area school shooting, ASSOCIATED PRESS, 18-May-10.        
12
Cheryl Ross & Janie Bryant, After shooting, Wilson High students wary about security, VIRGINIAN-PILOT, 30-Apr-
10.        
13
Deputies arrest 4 students after school shooting, WAFB-TV 9 BATON ROUGE, 26-Mar-10.        
14
Leslie Tripp,Suspect kills self in Ohio State shooting, police say, CNN, 9-Mar-10.    
15
Nicholas Riccardi, Math teacher hailed as hero after Colorado school shooting, LOS ANGELES TIMES, 25-Feb-10.        
16
NIU Shooting Leaves 1 Hurt, 1 in Custody, ASSOCIATED PRESS, 19-Feb-10.        1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC  20005 i(202) 898-0792 iFAX (202) 371-9615
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3  Updated 12/22/2010
in 2002.  The gun used in shooting was bought from the shooter’s husband in 1989 by a friend in New
Hampshire to avoid a waiting period in Massachusetts.
17
Knoxville, TN ٠ 2/10/10.  A teacher shot and wounded the principal and assistant principal in their
offices at Inskip Elementary School, where all three worked..
18
Madison, AL ٠ 2/5/10.  A 14-year-old student was shot and killed between classes at Discovery Middle
School. The suspect in police custody is a fellow ninth grade student.
19
Livingston, AL ٠ 1/20/10.  A high school teacher was shot multiple times outside her school in what
police believe was a domestic incident. The suspect was caught 30 miles from the scene after causing a
traffic accident.
20
Phoenix, AZ ٠ 1/7/10.  A 16 year old former student shot three students outside Esperanza Charter
School.  The shooter argued with two 19 year olds and then shot them.  A 10 year old boy was also
grazed with a bullet.  Police believe the shooting was gang related.
21
Shreveport, LA ٠ 12/11/09.  A 28 year old man shot an 18 year old female student multiple times outide
of Shreveport High School.  The shooter waited at the school for her to arrive in the morning and is
believed to have been involved with the teenager.  The victim is expected to survive.
22
Woodbridge, VA ٠ 12/8/09.  A 20 year old student fired twice at his math professor during class at
Northern Virginia Community College.  The shooter then put his gun down, left the classroom and was
arrested without incident.  Nobody was injured.
23
Brockton, MA ٠ 12/2/09.  A 17 year old former student was shot in both legs late in the afternoon at
Brockton High School.  He was shot near the gymnasium where approximately 100 students were
participating in basketball tryouts.
24
Boston, MA ٠ 11/17/09.  A 22 year old man was shot while playing basketball in the evening at a
elementary school.  Police believe the shooting was gang-related.
25
Dallas, TX ٠ 11/16/09.  A Dallas schools maintence man visiting Umphrey Lee Elementary School
accidentally shot himself in the leg while talking with a custodian.  No children were nearby when the
shooting occurred.
26
                                               
17
Emanuella Grinberg, Judge sends Alabama university shooting case to grand jury, CNN, 24-Mar-10. Aaron
Cooper & Brooke Baldwin,  Police: University shooting suspect was charged after fight in 2002, CNN, 17-Feb-10  
18
Tonja Bur, Knoxville elementary principal Elisa Luna, injured in school shooting, trasnferred to Atlanta hospital,
IR-TV 10 KNOXVILLE, 17-Feb-10.        
19
Yvonne T. Betowt, Madison coming to grips with Discovery Middle School shooting, THE HUNTSVILLE TIMES, 7-
Feb-10.        
20
Wayne Grayson Livingston teacher shot outside school, THE TUSCALOOSA NEWS, 21-Jan-10.        
21
Police: Triple shooting near north Phoenix school is gang related, ASSOCIATED PRESS, 8-Jan-10.        
22
Teenage girl shot at Shreveport high school, SHREVEPORT TIMES, 11-Dec-09.        
23
Nafeesa Syeed No one hurt in college classroom shooting, ASSOCIATED PRESS, 9-Dec-09.        
24
John M. Guilfoil, Man is shot at Brockton High School, BOSTON GLOBE, 2-Dec-09.        
25
Boston police call Dorchester shooting gang-related, BOSTON GLOBE, 18-Nov-09.        
26
Tawnell Hobbs, DISD employee was accidental shooter at Umphrey Lee, DALLAS MORNING NEWS, 16-Nov-09.        1225 Eye Street, NW, Suite 1100, Washington, DC  20005 i(202) 898-0792 iFAX (202) 371-9615
Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence
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4  Updated 12/22/2010
Philadelphia, PA ٠ 11/6/09.  A 15 year old shot a 17 year old fellow student in the head on the school
bus to CEP Miller School before fleeing.  He was later arrested and found in possession of a handgun.  
Police believe the shooter was retaliating for being bullied by the victim.
27
Pineville, LA ٠ 11/1/09.  A 19 year old fatally shot himself in the head with an SKS assault rifle.  He was
at a party with a group of people who were "playing" with the gun at 3am.
28
Memphis, TN ٠ 10/24/09.  Four teenagers shot an AK-47 assault rifle in a wooded area behind
Craigmont High School while school was in session.  Two of the suspects, who were not students at the
school, were parked outside the school in the fire lane, and apprehended by police with the weapon and a
30 round magazine.
29
Long Beach, CA ٠ 10/20/09.  A 16 year old female student was shot and killed, and two non-students,
ages 18 and 20, were injured when someone opened fire as hundreds of people were leaving a Friday
night football game at Woodrow Wilson High School.  There was a school dance, with approximately 200
students, also happening at the school at the time of the shooting.
30
Southold, NY ٠ 10/8/09.  A 28 year old man fired a bullet that went through a window of Mattituck High
School and grazed the head of an 18 year old student sitting in class.  The bullet was possibly fired from
his home that is located near the school.
31
Henrico, VA ٠ 9/16/09.  A 16 year old student with a handgun fired multiple shots in the parking lot of
~ the list was so long: The message exceeds the maximum allowed length (20000 characters).

posted on April 24th, 2011, 3:41 am

Some info that I found interesting:

    A 2004 study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that 2,335 children were killed in drunk driving accidents between 1997 and 2002. Of those children who were killed, 68 percent of them were in a vehicle driven by an impaired driver.

    The National Highway Safety Administration (NHTSA) detailed in 2003 how motor vehicle crashes were the leading cause of death for children between the ages of two and 14. With that said, the NHTSA found in 2004 that 21 percent of the children who were killed in motor vehicle accidents in 2003 were involved in drunk driving accidents. Approximately, 47 percent (209) of those kids were passengers in vehicles in which the driver was DUI.

Maybe we should be more concerned with alcohol than guns?  These statistics sound like much more of a problem....

It's pretty easy to get sucked in by the statistics.  If you look at knife crime, it sounds like people are going crazy in the streets slashing each other (especially if you look at UK stats).

School violence isn't a cause of the weapon, it's poor parenting coupled often coupled with or the result of mental instability.  Pipe bombs aren't legal but these kids sure seem to get them together when they want to cause harm.

posted on April 24th, 2011, 4:18 am

Personally, I don't think that learning how to use a gun is appropriate for someone below the age of, let's say 18. Let's remember that these are things primarily designed for killing other people. But as I say, it's my personal opinion, feel free to disagree. My problem goes more towards the case that teaching the use of a gun does not happen as you described, and that younger children might not be receptive for the strict rules associated with firearms.

Well i would disagree with the part about them primarily being used to kill other people. They are used to kill things but not primary other people. I dont think that a child should be given a handgun. However if the parent wanted to give them an air rifle to start with because it cant be used to kill anything really. And then as the child grows older a 22 rifle is also appropriate (also really hard to kill anything with). Now the child should not be allowed access to the gun unless the parent is around (read it should be stored in a safe) and the child should be taught that the gun is not a toy and should not be pointed at anyone. Some people should not be parents however thats not up for me to decide.

Btw Clint i think that it would be really easy to make a pipe bomb IMO the hardest part would be creating the detonator and thanks to the terrorists im sure they could figure out one if they wanted too.

posted on April 24th, 2011, 4:21 am

Um I'm pretty sure guns were invented to kill people

posted on April 24th, 2011, 6:45 am

I never said that they weren't however most civilian firearms are designed for hunting not for killing people. Most civilian firearms will not be used to kill people. They will be shot at targets/animals. A few may be used to take another persons life but not most of them.

posted on April 24th, 2011, 6:54 am

So just about every handgun then, I mean those guns really aren't for hunting well other then the most dangerous game...... man 

posted on April 24th, 2011, 8:43 am

most civilian firearms are designed for hunting not for killing people.

I heard most bombs are designed to kill enemy soldiers...anyway they tend to kill civilians as well...not much of an argument if you ask me

posted on April 24th, 2011, 10:23 am

Well i would disagree with the part about them primarily being used to kill other people. They are used to kill things but not primary other people. I dont think that a child should be given a handgun. However if the parent wanted to give them an air rifle to start with because it cant be used to kill anything really. And then as the child grows older a 22 rifle is also appropriate (also really hard to kill anything with). Now the child should not be allowed access to the gun unless the parent is around (read it should be stored in a safe) and the child should be taught that the gun is not a toy and should not be pointed at anyone. Some people should not be parents however thats not up for me to decide.

Right, my fault. But the procedure you describe is something I would agree with.

posted on April 24th, 2011, 10:51 am

just because alcohol is a concern doesnt mean we should ignore guns. we should ignore neither, both are abused to horrible results.

if u look at these ratios:

how many abuse guns to cause or result in death/how many posess guns (legally or illegally)

and

how many abuse alcohol to cause or result in death/how many consume any alcohol in total

you will find that the ratios are a pain to get numbers for, and the top ratio is higher. you cant compare raw numberrs of deaths caused by alcohol or caused by guns because many many more people consume alcohol than posess guns.

so if 1% of people who consume alcohol cause a death and 10% of people who posess guns cause a death then the raw numbers of alcohol related deaths would still be bigger as most people consume alcohol in one way or another.

both are problems, both need sorting, we have alcohol problems in the uk too.

posted on April 24th, 2011, 12:18 pm

If I wonted to make a debate about how its peoples personal rights to own and use rocket propelled grenades I could. To do this I would need to picks and chose witch evidence I use. Not using some evidence while using evidence that suports what I am up to. All so I would need to discredit outer evanesce in a few different ways one of with comparing statistics that that make it look as if using rocket propelled grenades are a less dangerous options in a random comparison. 

At the end of the day its not the facts that make a point true for one person. Its the conversations that has that gives the facts thats behind the scenes.

I am clear for me my conversation is a people being loved and taken care of.

What is yours?

Some info that I found interesting:

    A 2004 study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that 2,335 children were killed in drunk driving accidents between 1997 and 2002. Of those children who were killed, 68 percent of them were in a vehicle driven by an impaired driver.

    The National Highway Safety Administration (NHTSA) detailed in 2003 how motor vehicle crashes were the leading cause of death for children between the ages of two and 14. With that said, the NHTSA found in 2004 that 21 percent of the children who were killed in motor vehicle accidents in 2003 were involved in drunk driving accidents. Approximately, 47 percent (209) of those kids were passengers in vehicles in which the driver was DUI.

Maybe we should be more concerned with alcohol than guns?  These statistics sound like much more of a problem....

It's pretty easy to get sucked in by the statistics.  If you look at knife crime, it sounds like people are going crazy in the streets slashing each other (especially if you look at UK stats).

School violence isn't a cause of the weapon, it's poor parenting coupled often coupled with or the result of mental instability.  Pipe bombs aren't legal but these kids sure seem to get them together when they want to cause harm.

posted on April 24th, 2011, 1:48 pm

I'm not sure I follow.  Are you saying that facts do not make an argument?  I'm not sure I agree there.  I will say that my position is that personal freedoms should be protected as much as possible.  Reducing the availability of firearms only pushes criminals and demented individuals to use different weapons such as bombs, knives, etc.

Firearm owning and usage in the US is a tradition, especially in the midwest/south.  It is also a part of the US Constitution.  The framers were pretty smart people.  Parents own and license firearms, children generally do not.  It is up to parents to be parents and ensure their weapons are well cared for and not used for illegal/immoral acts.

Let's hold each other accountable to being good parents before we start creating laws taking away freedoms.

posted on April 24th, 2011, 2:48 pm

Owning slaves was also a tradition, as was not allowing women to vote, not allowing minorities to own property, and stealing land from American Indians etc. And yup, the framers did all those things too.

I'd personally like the freedom not to be shot in the schools I'm attending, or to be threatened by guns if I have a dissagreement, or to breath other people's nasty carcinogens too.

P.S. I've never heard of a semi automatic knife with a 100 round clip. Or even a 9mm Knife and comes with an attachable scope.

posted on April 24th, 2011, 3:26 pm

Guns aren't allowed in schools.  It's a matter of enforcement. 

While I can't disagree with the increased destructive capability of firearms over blades; I'm not sure making them illegal to own will solve that problem.  Pipe bombs are illegal, yet many are made and used in relation to school/childhood crimes.  In fact, it is may be that disturbed children move even more into bomb-making should they not have firearms available (this is a weak argument, just a thought to ponder).

I say we tackle the more destructive of societal issues first before jumping on the low-risk issues.  The only problem, people don't like to tackle the really tough issues like excessive drinking (way more injuries and fatalities associated with that globally), natural disasters, rogue penguin attacks, etc.

I'm not opposed to limiting the type of firearms available or changing the amount of training required.  But I think we should really make sure we are addressing the root cause of the problem rather than the symptoms. 

Anyways, I resign myself to the fact that the majority of this community comes from a completely different frame of political reference.  I'll go back to my hole now. 

posted on April 24th, 2011, 3:34 pm

treat the cause not the symptom is a bad idea, its best to treat both.

the symptom is easier to treat than the cause, we should start by treating the symptom and move on to treating the cause.