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posted on September 19th, 2010, 8:49 pm

Erm yeah I confused the received damage from the Rhienns to the Bombers.  That was a mis-type.

  Look, my point is that you are arbitrarily telling everyone what SHOULD have happened and making up reasons why.  Breen WILL do base damage to Leahvals so they're not BAD.  Bombers will do 50% extra yes, but will get slaughtered by the Rhienns.

  Instead of building something that counters and gets countered by what was already on the board, he built something that would do alright against both.  And they did.  Boom.

posted on September 19th, 2010, 8:55 pm

  Look, my point is that you are arbitrarily telling everyone what SHOULD have happened and making up reasons why.  Breen WILL do base damage to Leahvals so they're not BAD.  Bombers will do 50% extra yes, but will get slaughtered by the Rhienns.

   Instead of building something that counters and gets countered by what was already on the board, he built something that would do alright against both.  And they did.  Boom.

i'm not "making up reasons" the reasons are fact i'm just pointing them out.

i'll say again: at the time when he started the breen cruiser spam ray was going for mostly leahvals i believe. so bombers would have been great, as there were not very many rhienns on the field.

it was only later when more rhienns started appearing, at which point s2 would have been better.

my position is that breen cruiser spam is not good vs leahval spam. dont say "WILL" in capitals like your's the only valid opinion 

if ray had done better with his leahvals he wouldnt have lost those 2 leahvals.

breen cruisers are good vs medium ships, and even better vs medium battleships.

but against a medium sized short range ship they just werent cutting the mustard.

[Boggz]

posted on September 19th, 2010, 9:06 pm

Last edited by Boggz on September 19th, 2010, 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

my position is that breen cruiser spam is not good vs leahval spam. dont say "WILL" in capitals like your's the only valid opinion 

   Neither of them were spamming.  God forbid people mix their fleets .

  My opinion isn't the only valid one.  Neither is yours.  Your opinions or "fact" as you were calling them were very direct and loud.  I was providing anyone reading this hoping to learn something that Breen are not actually as bad or useless as you and a few others seem to think they are.  They did fine here and that's ok.


  Lol.  Bottom line:  Breen do just fine against what he was facing.  Mixed fleets ftw! 

posted on September 19th, 2010, 9:15 pm

@ Boggz, i was joking bout mvp

@ both of you

The breen were doing just fine vs leavhals, i would hardly say i was being careless, i was more like defending my proxy yard which i was building so i could take that second mining, sure i lost a leahval or two, but i repaired the others and got them back out there, as i said, with at least on of those leavhals, i was having command issues, but i assure you, the breen were hitting the leavhals hard, and were a pain in the ass to kill, so instead of you two arguing about it, why dont you guys go test it?

[Boggz]

posted on September 19th, 2010, 9:18 pm

Last edited by Boggz on September 19th, 2010, 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

@ray  -  Yeah right "you were joking"

  Oh, and there's nothing "to test".  It's not an argument about whether Breen beat Leahvals or not.

posted on September 19th, 2010, 9:20 pm

and completely ignore the rest of my post, good job boggz

[Anonymous]

posted on September 19th, 2010, 9:21 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on September 19th, 2010, 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

   Neither of them were spamming.  God forbid people mix their fleets .

true they werent spamming in the strong sense of the word, it was a poor choice of words.

but tun started with all bugs, and ray went for leahvals in numbers to eat the bugs.

my point is that bombers will change the counter back around.

My opinion isn't the only valid one.  Neither is yours.  Your opinions or "fact" as you were calling them were very direct and loud.

i am a loud person, and i do not intend to say i am always right. as always i was expressing my opinion.

in this case though i was stating the fact that bombers counter leahvals. this is even recorded in the counter tables of the guide.

I was providing anyone reading this hoping to learn something that Breen are not actually as bad or useless as you and a few others seem to think they are.  They did fine here and that's ok.

if u read my posts you will find i have never said breen cruisers are bad or useless. if u are recalling a recent spam thread about breen cruisers being up u will see which side of the argument i was on there.

breen cruisers are specialists, they are good at what they do, very good at what they do. but they are also not good at other things, and in this case they werent a good choice.

Clearly there are more specialized units to use against Leahvals, but having a mixed fleet means you can't always just go with direct counters .

as i have already said at the time when tun went for lots of breen cruisers his enemy was fielding mostly leahvals. with the odd rhienn which wasnt killed yet. bombers might have not done well against the rhienns. but would have done excellent against the many more leahvals.

Range has nothing to do with their damage because he was fighting Rhienns/Leahvals.  Only size and class effect Breen torpedoes while SSEC would affect a medium.  They do base damage against medium sized cruisers/supports.  Extra against Battleships and extra against large because they hit with all torpedoes.

u say range has nothing to do with it, then mention SSEC, which depends on range. ur point is confusing.

range does matter, short is not medium, so the breen cruiser is not getting a bonus from SSEC against leahvals.

Thus, Breen cruisers do base damage againt Leahvals .  Just like Bugs do base damage against Rhienns .

breen cruisers dont do base damage against leahvals, they miss 20% of the time due to the leahval being medium sized and breen cruisers deal all of their damage via torpedoes.

EDIT: oh come on boggz u removed half your post ignore the rebuttals against things u didnt say anymore.

lets agree that the end of this debate is as such:
i am of the opinion that against mostly leahvals you shouldn't go breen's but go bombers

boggz is of the opinion that both options will be ok

seem reasonable as a conclusion?

posted on September 19th, 2010, 9:24 pm

and completely ignore the rest of my post, good job boggz

Here's the rest of your post:

That was a very fun game, was a blast to play, although i am not sure if i agree with your assesment that clint was the mvp, sure he attacked in multiple places on the map, but really i thought that both of us played equally, i just didnt attack the enemy klings cus clint had it handled and i had the dom handled.

Also i wanted to point out you mentioned that i hadnt research the repair special for the leavhals, i usually do that, i just didnt need to, if you look in the log at the end of the video, i had more resources then the enemy team combined, i was definently not short on resources, i had over 10000 in excess at the end, and i gave alot to clint, in fact i didnt know what to do with all of it, i was trying to figure out what to build

good game all

  Your first paragraph wasn't a joke ...  :ermm:  Jokes don't have supporting reasons

 I didn't mention the rest because it has nothing to do with your "joke" about mvp.  That's why I didn't mention it.  Anything else you'd like to add?  :D

posted on September 19th, 2010, 9:28 pm

Now the real trick is to figure out which one is the left duck and which one is the right.

It's great to see people who have been on the forums for so long getting into online play.  I haven't seen the replay yet, but I plan to.  Good to see TUN and NJM online!

posted on September 19th, 2010, 9:29 pm

Actually you did.  Right here  :D

  You call them a bad choice and that they "are bad against ...".

That's close enough for me.  They're NOT bad against Leahvals.  They're not just not counters .

you actually quoted my post, yet completely missed the point.

bugs do pathetically against leahvals,

breens do better, but still bad.

breens are bad against leahvals, they (leahvals) are only medium sized, so torps still miss a lot. and they arent medium ranged for SSEC. breens are also slow as molasses, and the leahvals short ranged and fast, and cloak makes it worse, the breens couldnt respond in time.

the breens got kills cos ray was careless, and had so few numbers.

breens were a mistake, bombers would have been much nicer.

 Oh, and they DO in fact do base damage because Torpedoes naturally do 20% more damage than phasers, just as Pulses do.  Thus, if Torpedoes or Pulses are firing on medium sized ships they will be doing the same BASE damage as a phaser.  

 Hence, base damage.

posted on September 19th, 2010, 9:36 pm

Actually you did.  Right here  :D

  You call them a bad choice and that they "are bad against ...".

That's close enough for me.  They're NOT bad against Leahvals.  They're not just not counters .

u quote me again, and still misinterpret my quote.

u said that i say that are "useless"

from my quote it's completely obvious i said they were bad against leahvals. thats QUALIFIED (i can use caps too ) breens are not useless, just fighting leahvals isnt one of their uses. fighting sovvies is one of their uses. fighting big D is one too.

 Oh, and they DO in fact do base damage because Torpedoes naturally do 20% more damage than phasers, just as Pulses do.  Thus, if Torpedoes or Pulses are firing on medium sized ships they will be doing the same BASE damage as a phaser.  

 Hence, base damage.

lolwut

u compare accross weapons, that is silly. torps may naturally do more damage than phasers, but that is irrelevant here.

base damage (as i understand the term) is the normal damage a weapon does, ie if it always hits and is not affected by a passive it does base damage. thus a breen cruiser does base damage to a large ship which isnt medium ranged and isnt a battleship. to a leahval it misses 20% of the time and therefore does less than base.

mentioning phasers is not relevant hear as it has none.

posted on September 19th, 2010, 9:40 pm

Lol.

  You're right, Myles.  I must be crazy.

Forget everything I said.  Commence quacking procedure.

posted on September 19th, 2010, 9:42 pm

lol to all the Breen talk.

A20 Bombers would have been best in the end since Ray spammed mostly Leavahls, but at the time he had a few Rheins so I went the middle ground I guess. Everything seemed to be going fine until Clint took out my north mining. Clint's one of the best players I have ever run into, I've yet to beat him in any game I play against him, so in my biased opinion I think I'll say he was MVP. Plus he managed 2-3 separate fleets on multiple fronts at once... that's just epic.

posted on September 19th, 2010, 9:44 pm

I still think the breen did okay,

Anyone dont worry, because we did a rematch right afterward that yandon recorded, and although it did go oss, it is easy enough to tell who was winning when it went oss, and we were all the same race cept clint was borg, it woulda been nice if it didnt go oss, cus it was shaping up to be a better game then the first

And i just saw you post, nep, true a20 woulda been good, but i actually did have a good many rheins, and my expansions in mining were left uncontested, so like i said, i had more resources then you and your partner combined by games end, i was not needing resources which alowed me to mass produce

posted on September 19th, 2010, 9:47 pm

but at the time he had a few Rheins so I went the middle ground I guess.

  My point exactly.  Thank you .

  And btw that's the first time I've ever seen you play TUN!  Nicely done!  I was very impressed