The Balance Thread

posted on September 4th, 2006, 1:52 am

Im sorry but only one ship is really that bad when massed

The warbird plain and simple is best

posted on September 4th, 2006, 2:13 am

on the next round of testing try pitting the same class ships against each other just for my curiousity (spelling??) for example sovvies vs sovvies, the different rhein refits also try 1 refit against a different refit like the phaser vs the torpedo or whatever it is.

posted on September 4th, 2006, 2:18 am

Yeah, lets see 16 defiants vs 16 warbirds!

posted on September 4th, 2006, 4:29 am

D'deridex vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 D'deridexes win

A suprising result. Eventhough Defiants pulses do only 60% of their full damage to large ships the Defiant won 1on1 with the D'deridex. This is purely because of the special weapon, as the D'deridex wasnt able to fire for full 21s and that is a BIG BIG advantage for the Defiant. 16vs16 Hypercube was not able to control the special weapon manualy and so they all fired all of their special weapons at a couple of D'deridexes thus wasting their advantage.
Note: Mijural gives defence bonus to the D'deridex.
------>Conclusion: Defiants special weapon really is too strong, it needs to be lowered. But as Optec already said that is already done


First damn topic the starter of this thread!
And we WILL test ALL ships we just you know like.....have lifes to attend to.

posted on September 4th, 2006, 4:42 am

QUOTE (-=B!G=-The Black Baron @ Sep 3 2006, 11:01 AM)
Apparently hypercube didnt remember all the battle results, as we also did a T15 vs that Blue beam klingon ship. T15 won 1vs1 with still some shields remaining and 16vs16 with  only 3 T15s destroyed(some others were damaged).
Now this shows how great it is to mass blue beam ships (according to redshirt wink.gif)

Um, no, actually, it doesn't. I already said that both that the "blue beam ships" as you so intellegently call them are superior when combined with a more varied fleet and that when massed they were ineffective against large groups of destroyers or other smaller ships.

This is your list of ships that OWN when massed:

Hmmm you want a list?

Klingons: Cho'naQ, K'vort

Feds: Defiant, Remore

Roms: G-Frigate, Eresis

Dom: Bugs, Breen B-ships

This is a comment u posted with your pics:

I also killed the base on the bottom middle with a fleet of only Cho'naQs (which had just slaughtered 20 rommy B-ships by the way).

This is again one of your arguments "proving" the awesomeness of the "Blue beam ships" as I so intelligently call them:

I simply said that the Cho'naQ can get the job done too.

Oh, and 12 seconds. That's how long it took me to completely obliterate a dominion base with roughly 90 Cho'naQs.

These quotes are from the Defiant thread where u kept arguing how great these klingon ships are when massed, eventhough EVERYONE was saying otherwise.

Also you are saying that T15s qualify in the group of "destroyers or smaller ships" as blue beams suck against them. Let me enlighten you, T15 aka HEAVY CRUISER is a cruiser for the dominion with fast fireing pulses, long range and pretty weak shields.

In conclusion, you proved... nothing! Way to go! laugh.gif

Actually I proved my point pretty good, by disproving yours (that was my intent all along )

QUOTE
And I had to enlighten you and everyone else why were those results as they were, because the way you describe it it seems the feds are some underdogs who have to rely on masses to destroy their enemies, when in fact it is the other way around wink.gif


Well, considering that the fed's most effective "balanced" tactic (ie not the defiant) is destroyer swarming, your claims that they are not a massing type race just seems... stupid, for lack of better word.

And u tell us this by your considrable experiance in MP games? Let me tell you something: If you play vs AI and you mass ANY, that is correct I mean ANY FRICKIN SHIP TYPE you will win.
Now lets talk about your theory on massing destroyers as feds most effective tactic. You are Federation and I am Dominion and we play on Eraudi 1vs1. Right so u get right to your sabre/monsoon massing techniques and I for starters build like 8-16 bugs. You try to rush me but I will hold you back as, obviously, the Dominion are MUCH better than the federation at massing ships. You send first wave which is repulsed, u keep building those Sabres and when you send your other wave towards me I already have about 8 breen cruisers + 16 bugs you again get owned. By the time you get your third wave I would have 16+ breen cruisers and there is NO WAY IN HELL you are going to build enough destroyers fast enough to beat such a force of PULSE ships vs destroyers, not if your Federation.
If you want my advice, adapt to your enemies strategy. It works for every race and there is no way your gonna win against equal opponents by simply massing 1 type of ships, not with any race(except maybe if you go for extreme rushing using ktingas or puretech's bugs) but if you know what you are doing, you should repell that force.

Feds are actually a very well balanced race and their ships can go 1on1 with any races ships of equal cost and would have a good chance of winning. All you have to do is use your head when building a fleet and use your special weapons wisely as Feds in particular have a lot of special weapons that give different benefits to all of your fleet and not just 1 ship.

Yeah, lets see 16 defiants vs 16 warbirds!

In the very FIRST post in this topic this is already done -.- Let me bring up the info again:

-D'deridex vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 D'deridexes win

-Norexan vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 Norexans win

posted on September 4th, 2006, 12:08 pm

well the Ktinga rush i specialise in and its pretty useful to throw the enemy off balance right at the start especially in team games.

but ur right Barron there is no way ur gonna win with the Sabre monsoon rush you need the heavier guns for teh federation its the only way

posted on September 4th, 2006, 12:14 pm

yeah i told him that already, you'r right about swarming though, i mean it's just funny how people keep gathering and massing k'tingas when i already have 16 defiants, even though they could probably own 2-3 groups without severe losses, in fact i once owned a group of akiras without losses and they'r quite good agaist defiant class vessels.

baron put it well, change your freking tactics during the game, you cannot win if you'r entire fleet gets slaughtered without inflicting losses, or inflicting a few, if you just lost 4 groups of freking k'tingas without a kill, YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG!

posted on September 4th, 2006, 12:24 pm

well thats where the massing of warbirds comes in like last night

posted on September 4th, 2006, 1:02 pm

yeah it was great, but warbirds only rocked becuse we had no ships to counteract them, i had monsoons and defiants and nivek had bugs and t-15 , all small ship killers, which you could have noticed when aways what was left after the attack were your warbirds and you ran away a couple of times, but ultimatelly, your allies massed small ships to keep our superior small ship killers buisy while the warbirds tore them appart.

[Acidpunk]

posted on September 4th, 2006, 3:05 pm

Last edited by Acidpunk on September 4th, 2006, 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

yeah i know i agree with you

What i also says is we developed a really balanced fleet

by adding warbirds to the Smaller ships we had muscle as well as Cannonfodder

posted on September 5th, 2006, 9:29 pm

This is your list of ships that OWN when massed:



This is a comment u posted with your pics:



This is again one of your arguments "proving" the awesomeness of the "Blue beam ships" as I so intelligently call them:



These quotes are from the Defiant thread where u kept arguing how great these klingon ships are when massed, eventhough EVERYONE was saying otherwise.

Also you are saying that T15s qualify in the group of "destroyers or smaller ships" as blue beams suck against them. Let me enlighten you, T15 aka HEAVY CRUISER is a cruiser for the dominion with fast fireing pulses, long range and pretty weak shields.



Actually I proved my point pretty good, by disproving yours (that was my intent all along )



And u tell us this by your considrable experiance in MP games? Let me tell you something: If you play vs AI and you mass ANY, that is correct I mean ANY FRICKIN SHIP TYPE you will win.
Now lets talk about your theory on massing destroyers as feds most effective tactic. You are Federation and I am Dominion and we play on Eraudi 1vs1. Right so u get right to your sabre/monsoon massing techniques and I for starters build like 8-16 bugs. You try to rush me but I will hold you back as, obviously, the Dominion are MUCH better than the federation at massing ships. You send first wave which is repulsed, u keep building those Sabres and when you send your other wave towards me I already have about 8 breen cruisers + 16 bugs you again get owned. By the time you get your third wave I would have 16+ breen cruisers and there is NO WAY IN HELL you are going to build enough destroyers fast enough to beat such a force of PULSE ships vs destroyers, not if your Federation.
If you want my advice, adapt to your enemies strategy. It works for every race and there is no way your gonna win against equal opponents by simply massing 1 type of ships, not with any race(except maybe if you go for extreme rushing using ktingas or puretech's bugs) but if you know what you are doing, you should repell that force.

Feds are actually a very well balanced race and their ships can go 1on1 with any races ships of equal cost and would have a good chance of winning. All you have to do is use your head when building a fleet and use your special weapons wisely as Feds in particular have a lot of special weapons that give different benefits to all of your fleet and not just 1 ship.




In the very FIRST post in this topic this is already done -.- Let me bring up the info again:

-D'deridex vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 D'deridexes win

-Norexan vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 Norexans win

So the point of this thread was to... attack me?! Way to go on your high and mighty goals, oh noble and honorable baron!

posted on September 6th, 2006, 9:17 pm

So the point of this thread was to... attack me?! Way to go on your high and mighty goals, oh noble and honorable baron!

Red Shirt I hate to be rude, but it has gotten to the point of flaming you because at this point you see are seemingly arguing against what everyone was saying. I would ask both parites to drop it. The blue beam ships are artillary ships and should be treated as such, weak to anything that is fast and can fire pretty fast. Defiants are unstobable

There was a comment earlier about the cloak being to powerful. This is one thing I think makes fleetops great, in A2 you picked up a clocked ship with a scout now atleast clocking has to some degree tactics. (although I still think the roumlans should get a better cloak.)

posted on September 6th, 2006, 10:12 pm

all the time i hear all this complaint about the cloak in A2, whats wrong with it. if you have the cloaked ship at green alert it will not be picked up by the detection net.

posted on September 6th, 2006, 10:29 pm

actually it will and having the grid on scouts was cheap cause all u had to do was keep a venture with the fleet and it was over for any cloaked fleets before they could even get a shot off

I personally love the cloak and regular playing has taught me its perfectly balanced if you use the cloak right

Like the last match i played where i cloaked and snuck into rhaz's base and obliterated him with 2 fleets of Rheins and warbirds

i love being able to do that

his fault he didnt get the grid

[Anonymous]

posted on September 7th, 2006, 12:07 am

Last edited by Anonymous on September 7th, 2006, 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

QUOTE (-=B!G=-The Black Baron @ Sep 4 2006, 05:42 AM)


This is your list of ships that OWN when massed:



This is a comment u posted with your pics:



This is again one of your arguments "proving" the awesomeness of the "Blue beam ships" as I so intelligently call them:



These quotes are from the Defiant thread where u kept arguing how great these klingon ships are when massed, eventhough EVERYONE was saying otherwise.

Also you are saying that T15s qualify in the group of "destroyers or smaller ships" as blue beams suck against them. Let me enlighten you, T15 aka HEAVY CRUISER is a cruiser for the dominion with fast fireing pulses, long range and pretty weak shields.



Actually I proved my point pretty good, by disproving yours wink.gif (that was my intent all along ohmy.gif)



And u tell us this by your considrable experiance in MP games? Let me tell you something: If you play vs AI and you mass ANY, that is correct I mean ANY FRICKIN SHIP TYPE you will win.
Now lets talk about your theory on massing destroyers as feds most effective tactic. You are Federation and I am Dominion and we play on Eraudi 1vs1. Right so u get right to your sabre/monsoon massing techniques and I for starters build like 8-16 bugs. You try to rush me but I will hold you back as, obviously, the Dominion are MUCH better than the federation at massing ships. You send first wave which is repulsed, u keep building those Sabres and when you send your other wave towards me I already have about 8 breen cruisers + 16 bugs you again get owned. By the time you get your third wave I would have 16+ breen cruisers and there is NO WAY IN HELL you are going to build enough destroyers fast enough to beat such a force of PULSE ships vs destroyers, not if your Federation.
If you want my advice, adapt to your enemies strategy. It works for every race and there is no way your gonna win against equal opponents by simply massing 1 type of ships, not with any race(except maybe if you go for extreme rushing using ktingas or puretech's bugs) but if you know what you are doing, you should repell that force.

Feds are actually a very well balanced race and their ships can go 1on1 with any races ships of equal cost and would have a good chance of winning. All you have to do is use your head when building a fleet and use your special weapons wisely as Feds in particular have a lot of special weapons that give different benefits to all of your fleet and not just 1 ship.




In the very FIRST post in this topic this is already done -.- Let me bring up the info again:

-D'deridex vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 D'deridexes win

-Norexan vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 Norexans win

So the point of this thread was to... attack me?! Way to go on your high and mighty goals, oh noble and honorable baron! sleep.gif

Emmm actually that test we did with blue beam ships was just so we can disprove your argument. Read carefully, you can see that my reply evolved only around that argument because you were hard-headed and didnt listen to us.

So actually when I wrote:

"These quotes are from the Defiant thread where u kept arguing how great these klingon ships are when massed, eventhough EVERYONE was saying otherwise.

Also you are saying that T15s qualify in the group of "destroyers or smaller ships" as blue beams suck against them. Let me enlighten you, T15 aka HEAVY CRUISER is a cruiser for the dominion with fast fireing pulses, long range and pretty weak shields.



Actually I proved my point pretty good, by disproving yours wink.gif (that was my intent all along ohmy.gif)"

So did I not prove my point in that blue beam ships are not good when massed? Or disprove yours that they only suck vs destroyers or smaller ships? I think I did both pretty good.
That sentance in the () is a joke and if you cannot see it as such, I am terribly sorry and I wont use jokes around you anymore ^_^



Now Im done arguing with you on this thread since this is THE BALANACE thread and this arguing really dosnt add anything worthy to it

oh noble and honorable baron!

Thanx for the compliment, I think your pretty "cool" yourself
......................................................................................................


A question for all of you:
Do u think the Dominion needs a Vorcha/Akira/Generix type cruiser? Cause I think they seriously lack some ships in that department, nor do they have efficient ships to fight them.
I came to that conclusion when I saw a fleet of T15s, bugs and bombers being raped by a fleet of akiras. The dominion had numerical advanage of course Now you can fight these ships with Battleships but u will get owned cause u cannot really build that many. Anyway I just wanted to know what the rest of you feel about the issue

BTW these are dominion cruisers and their roles(as I see them):
-Escort cruiser: Intrepid-type of cruiser, good vs big ships and useful because of its special weapon from which your whole fleet gets an advantage

-Heavy cruiser: A very good ship, but only against small ships and maybe against medium. It has pretty weak shields though and if it gets targeted it dies pretty fast

-Siege cruiser: Second support ship, some of its special weapons are good, brutal force and shielding wise it cannot stand up to any cruiser really.

-Battlecruiser: A battleship destroyer IMO with its 2 torps and fighters. Its special weapon does not work properly tho and its shielding is quite weak as well. Also against cruisers a fair procentage of its torps miss and its nowhere as effective as it is against battleships.