The Balance Thread

[Anonymous]

posted on August 30th, 2006, 10:46 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on August 30th, 2006, 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Due to heated discussions in the Defiant thread cts got the idea to test ship to ship combat in FO. Because he wasnt available it was me and hypercube who did the testing. Basically we first tested how ships cope in 1vs1 fight and then 16vs16 fight. Both of us had 2 weapons and 2 shield upgrades done and also special weapons researched.
This time we only tested 2 races, but I think we will continue these tests untill we get all the info about different ship classes.
So first of there was a fight of the Federation Admiral Mayson against the Romulan general Mijural

these are the results:

Levheal vs Akira:

- 1vs1 Akira wins
- 16vs16 Akiras win

This was a suprisingly tough test for the akiras as levheal may be far behing the akira in sheer strenght but it partly makes up for it with its special weapons.
Note: Mayson gives defence bonus to the Akira

Generix Frigate vs Akira:

- 1vs1 Akira wins
- 16vs16 Akiras win

An easier job for the Akiras than vs Levheals, though it was to be expected as Generix Frigates are made to fight small ships with pulses

Generix Dreadnought vs Akira:

-1vs1 Akira wins
-16vs16 Akiras win

An even easier job for Akiras than vs Generix Frigates, which I must say is suprising as I would thought the Dreadnought should do a lot better vs them.
------>Conclusion: I think the Dreadnought should get a little power boost

Cahleal vs Excelsiors:

-1vs1 Cahleal wins
-16vs16 Cahleals win

This was purely because of the Cahleals' special weapon, without it I think Excelsiors would win, by a small margine tho

Generix Frigate vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 Defiants win

Due to massive difference in ship cost this is the way it should be. We only tested this because of the Generix Frigates suppressive shielding and to see how it will cope with Defiants pulse phasers. Eventhough Defiants won comfortably I think this is the best way to cheaply fight them back

D'deridex vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 D'deridexes win

A suprising result. Eventhough Defiants pulses do only 60% of their full damage to large ships the Defiant won 1on1 with the D'deridex. This is purely because of the special weapon, as the D'deridex wasnt able to fire for full 21s and that is a BIG BIG advantage for the Defiant. 16vs16 Hypercube was not able to control the special weapon manualy and so they all fired all of their special weapons at a couple of D'deridexes thus wasting their advantage.
Note: Mijural gives defence bonus to the D'deridex.
------>Conclusion: Defiants special weapon really is too strong, it needs to be lowered. But as Optec already said that is already done

Norexan vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 Norexans win

A similar result to the one with the D'deridex test, it is again obvious that the special weapon really is too strong. However I was expecting the Norexan to cope better against defiants due to its Pulse weapons, it is strange to me.

D'deridex vs Sovereign:

1vs1 Sovereign wins
16vs16 Sovereigns win

Well it was kind of obvious that the Sovereign will win this, it was suprising however that 1vs1 it barely won. 16vs16 was a different matter and the Sovereigns won comfortalby.

Norexan vs Sovereign:

1vs1 Sovereign wins
16vs16 Sovereigns win

Again it was obvious who would win and Sovereigns had an easier time against Norexans than versus D'deridexes and that is the way it is supposed to be

Descent vs Tavara:

1vs1 Tavara wins

Well it was to be expected, however the Descent stoop up to Tavara pretty well and the Tavara had like 50% hull left when the Descent was finally destroyed. I think this is again due to the special weapon which will be lowered

Tavaras vs Defiants:

4vs16 Defiants win

We tested this just for fun since it was pretty obvious who would win. The tavars put up quite a fight thought and destroyed 5 Defiants in total before they were destroyed. They also captured 3 Defiants which were destroyed also. So in total they got rid of 8 Defiants.


-----> The Grand Conclusion:
Nothing too striking about these results except the awesomeness of the critical shot special weapon, which was already agreed to be lowered
Also it is a little strange that Generix Frigates are stronger than the Generix Dreadnoughts, it really should be the other way around. I think Generix Dreadnoughts need to pack a bigger punch
As for the grand question about the Defiant. I think that with its special weapon fixed it will be balanced and defeatable, not easily but nevertheless defeatable. If you are playing as Romulan versus Federation and you have to deal with the Defiants I suggest you build either Generix Frigates and you can easily outbuild them about 2:1 and I think at that ratio the Generixes should win. Or you go for D'deridex or Norexans, whichever you prefer. I like the first option better because it is cheaper and easier to do

My Defiant verdict: I am satisfied with the special weapon fix, however I generally do not agree with the Defiant being so strong for the reasons I have already mentioned, but just to make them clear: The Defiant is not a battleship and should not be able to fight like one, the ship is roughly the size of a Bird of Prey or Bug ship and it is disrespectful to think that the Federation has such superior technology to the Klingons or the Dominion to make such a ship. That said, I will settle for the special weapon fix and a balanced game, even if I do not agree with all of their judgements



This was just the first of many such tests which we will do in the following days, when we will have enough free time on our hands Expect the results here as soon as we finish If you want you can of course join when we test it, so we can do more tests at once which would make things easier
Also if you want any particular thing to be tested please just say so in this thread
Thats it from me now, next on the testing line are: Dominion allied with Breen forces vs Federations' Admiral Mayson.

posted on August 30th, 2006, 10:58 pm

Norexan vs Defiant:

1vs1 Defiant wins
16vs16 Norexans win

A similar result to the one with the D'deridex test, it is again obvious that the special weapon really is too strong. However I was expecting the Norexan to cope better against defiants due to its Pulse weapons, it is strange to me.

this is because the defiant isn't labeled as a small ship, it a medium ship in the odf, thus pulse weapons do normal damage to the defiant.

posted on August 30th, 2006, 11:03 pm

see i was right the defiant is ridiculously overpowered

test what Red said 16 remores

hahahahaha

I would love to see the results of Defiants Vs the V15 i think it is

and id also love to see the results of Defiants vs Vupta class see if the critical shots miss that would be a nice way to see if the defiant is overpowered or not

also a good test would be the Defiant vs Negvars

and as for the Odf label it needs to be changed as that thing is tiny

posted on August 30th, 2006, 11:26 pm

yah, a medium ship is something more like an akira IMO.

[hypercube]

posted on August 31st, 2006, 2:25 am

Last edited by hypercube on August 31st, 2006, 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

see i was right the defiant is ridiculously overpowered

actually the tests clearly showed that the factor in defiants wins is purelly by it's special weapon, they couldn't cope with alot of battleships, purelly becuse i wasn't able to control the special weapon efficiently enough. In the 1vs1 tests the defiants won, and it was a close call, comming down to hull, so if i hadn't used the special weapon, 3 times, at the critical moments, manually, it would not stand a chance against neither the norexian or the d'diredex.

as baron already stated, the dediredex and the norexian had their weapons offline for 21 seconds during the fight, that meaning that the defiant was fiiring 21 seconds longer, and it wa still a close call with the norexian, which has the pulse weapon that was quite effective againt defiants.

Answering to your request, next we will test the V15 and the dominion, untill finally moving on to the klingons, i'm really looking forward to seeing the monsoons battle the k'vorts.

[Anonymous]

posted on August 31st, 2006, 5:25 am

Last edited by Anonymous on August 31st, 2006, 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

this is because the defiant isn't labeled as a small ship, it a medium ship in the odf, thus pulse weapons do normal damage to the defiant.

This thing is bothering me, in the info page it says that pulse weapons do 80% dam to medium ships. Yet Optec and now you said that it takes full damage of the pulse weapons, somethings got to give. If u2 are right, please change the info page with correct information -.-

I would love to see the results of Defiants Vs the V15 i think it is

Its the T15 and yes we will test it

and id also love to see the results of Defiants vs Vupta class see if the critical shots miss that would be a nice way to see if the defiant is overpowered or not

I dont think the critical shot can miss :-S

also a good test would be the Defiant vs Negvars

That will be one of the tests of course


All of you should also remember that the feds had a slight advantage in this test due to their high defence values and more particulary shield strenght. Because when we upgraded both shields, feds got more actual shield points from it that the Roms did. Simply because 10% from 300 is more than 10% from 200 (an example)

posted on August 31st, 2006, 2:04 pm

I dont think the critical shot can miss :-S

tbh, i dont see why it shouldn't if other torpedo specials can miss.
lol, so dam annoying to shoot the negh'vars special, only to see it fly off in some other direction and be left without torpedoes like a fool :cry: .

This thing is bothering me, in the info page it says that pulse weapons do 80% dam to medium ships. Yet Optec and now you said that it takes full damage of the pulse weapons, somethings got to give. If u2 are right, please change the info page with correct information -.-

well here it is from the horses mouth, in direct relation to the defiant's pulse weapons:

damageBase = 7.2
"dom_bomber.odf" 12
"dom_heavy_cruiser.odf" 9.6

"rom_generix_frigate.odf" 6

(obviously there is more to it than this but these are the 3 different values in there in relation to size Plus the value for the generix resistance to pulse weapons.)

the base damage is the damage it does to large targets, 9.6 is the damage for medium targets and 12 is the damage for small targets.

posted on August 31st, 2006, 2:45 pm

So obviously u2 were lying

posted on August 31st, 2006, 2:48 pm

what me lying , never just assumed it was "normal" damge for medium ships

posted on August 31st, 2006, 3:04 pm

anyway one thing annoys me about the defiant why does it have 90 crew it shouldnt

shouldnt it be only like 50 or 49

posted on August 31st, 2006, 5:05 pm

yep should be about 50, look at how many times the ship was captured, although i suppose many of them were so the writers didn't have to destroy it. Still think it was captured less times than Voyager though and its 150 crew, lol

posted on August 31st, 2006, 9:35 pm

see i was right the defiant is ridiculously overpowered

test what Red said 16 remores

hahahahaha

I would love to see the results of Defiants Vs the V15 i think it is

and id also love to see the results of Defiants vs Vupta class see if the critical shots miss that would be a nice way to see if the defiant is overpowered or not

also a good test would be the Defiant vs Negvars

and as for the Odf label it needs to be changed as that thing is tiny

I tested that this afternoon at a friend's house.

16v16: We did it 3 times; the Defiants one because I tried the lvl 2 special ability instead of the ecm. My Remores won hanidily the other 2 times.

1v1: Defiant won one out of three because the critical shot hit.

posted on September 1st, 2006, 11:15 am

I tested that this afternoon at a friend's house.

16v16: We did it 3 times; the Defiants one because I tried the lvl 2 special ability instead of the ecm. My Remores won hanidily the other 2 times.

1v1: Defiant won one out of three because the critical shot hit.

Yah, we're gonna test that too Simply because I do not believe u
The only way remores could possibly win against defiants is with the use of precise volley. Now I dont remember exactly how much spec energy it takes to fire it nor for how does it disable a system. But defiant can nullfy that **** with the critical shot for 21s and I doubt Remore can survive for that long

posted on September 1st, 2006, 11:16 am

thats funny as i tested the defiants against the remoores, yesterday. (couldn't post cause my internet connection keeps misbehaving)

are you ready for it... the defiants won every time in both 1 v 1 and 16 v 16 battles. 3 defiants destroyed in the first 16 battle, and 4 in the second one ( bear in mind for the second 1 i was using most specials independantly.
In the 1 v 1 battle the defiant had about 20 to 40% hull depending on which weapons of the remoore were used.

posted on September 1st, 2006, 1:20 pm

well, that seems preety fair to me, the remoore is just a support ship, it shouldn't win against a battleship with or without the special weapons.