The Balance Thread

posted on September 2nd, 2006, 9:55 pm

i wud really like 2 see non cloaking races (feds, dominion*) equipped with some way of detecting cloaked ships at the start (tachyon on stations), even if it is with stations or something of the like, just need SOMETHING to stop rommies and klingons having complete LOS on you as you build, from that point on your chances are slim. half of this game for me is the risk associated with going to an enemy point, hoping that u have more ships than the opponent, judging when u can afford to attack.

a change that would make cloaked fleets more used against other fleets would be ace, atm its too much cloak vs base.



*yes i know the dominion can get the breen cruiser, but it doesnt make them a cloaking race

You have a point.

More than once a Romulan/Klingon opponent has gotten the best of me by knowing what I'm sending and building counters.

posted on September 2nd, 2006, 11:21 pm

This will be the day...

I agree 100% with Ryan.

These ships have electronics equipment over weapons, they are testbeds and should be EXTREMELY vulerable to sabo and such.

Sabo is done by placing an agent into the enemy vessle. I would imagine that if prototypes are so important they would have better security on them too
BTW: How can a Rommie agent even come to a Dominion ship without being detected is beyond me :S
Same on Borg ships.

Emmm counter cloaking is ok as it is now IMO. The sensor satelites are very cheap and that tac detection isnt too expensive either....

posted on September 2nd, 2006, 11:45 pm

yeah dont u dare change the counter cloak cause otherwise it will be like stock A2 and i hated that there simply was no point to cloaking

posted on September 2nd, 2006, 11:57 pm

Heck, there wasn't much of a point to doing anything in stock A2. Anything other than massing B-ships, that is.

posted on September 3rd, 2006, 12:39 am

building detection stations stumps the building of starships, ESPECIALLY for the feds, its slightly easier for the dominion to cope, but very hard for the feds imo.

[hypercube]

posted on September 3rd, 2006, 2:19 am

Last edited by hypercube on September 3rd, 2006, 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

we have done further testing with dominion, federation and klingon and the resoults are, that in general the federation was the weakest and the klingons the strongest:

Bug VS B'rel- 1vs1 the b'rel wins but 16vs16 the bug lifts the flag (without using ramming special ability)
Bug VS Saber- Bug wins both times (without using ramming special ability)

B'rel VS Saber-B'rel wins both times (sabers lost every time, being the least affective ship)
Akira VS Vorcha- Vorcha wins both times (special weapon contributes alot)

Breen cruiser VS Intrepid- Suprisingly Intrepid wins 1vs1 but looses 16vs16 (special weapon is less effective againt a larger force)
Sovereign VS Neghvar- Neghvar wins both time (martok avatar gives the neghvar bonus, which was indicated in the 1vs1 battle when sovereign lost by a slight margen.
Sovereign VS V13- Sovereign wins both times dispite the V13 special weapon.

Severeign VS Breen battleship- 1vs1 Breen winns by 15 hull, taking into account that the sovereigns weapons were offline twice they are quite evenly matched, 16vs16 breen wins
Neghvar VS V13- Negvar wins comfortably both times ( martok avatar gives the Neghvar bonus)
Neghvar VS Breen battleship- 1vs1 Neghvar wins, 16vs16 Breen wins with 2 remaining ships(it was quite a close call, negvar special is less effective)
B5 VS Excelsior 1vs1 the B5 won, using it's special weapon it won comfortably, but 16vs16 the excelsiors won by a mile with 8 ships left.
Defiant VS T-15- Both times the defiant wins, but in 1vs1 it was clear it had an advantage with the special weapon.
V-17 VS Akira- Akiras win both times, but not by much.

Monsoon VS K'vort- Kvorts win comfortably both times, clearly indicating their huge supremacy.
Intrepid VS S2- S2 wins both times (nothing special)

Vorcha VS B5- Vorchas win comfortably both times.

C-17 VS Sus'a 1vs1 goes to S17, while 16vs16 goes to Sus'a

And finally we went crazy and at the same time sent 16scouts of each race into battle, venturas died first, the dominion stood 2 more weaves and were destroyed by my defiants


I believe that this test suggests if not prooves the extreme superiority of klingons and dominion over the federation, but since the test was done with unlimited resources it is very possible that the federation makes up for it's lack of firepower with building speed, cost and Defiants

till next time, cheers from hypercube, baron and this time joining us, frodo.

[Jem Hadar]

posted on September 3rd, 2006, 9:25 am

Last edited by Jem Hadar on September 3rd, 2006, 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

If you wanna make it that way than they should at least be faster or a little better armored...better sensors ?
Not sure about it. Of course the modders choose what they change and what stays how it is.

Edit: This ist to the "Prototype-question"

@Hypercube:

In all of the "Little" ships which you can build very early, I think the Shrike and the Bop (with Avatar bonus) are the best. They just have the greatest fire power and cloaking abillity.

And I played some times where the saber is superior to the others, because of its very long weapon range, so dont underastimate them.

posted on September 3rd, 2006, 10:01 am

Yeah well range and maneurability didnt play a role in these tests and that is where certain ships have advantage over others (sabres for instance). That is why in real combat results might differ a little bit

In a lot of tests luck was a very important factor, for instance NeghVar vs Breen Battleship 1vs1 NeghVar knocked Breens weapon systems down right after its shields got down. There were a couple such instances.

During the test I noticed that the b5 will not use its special weapon even when on high weapon and high movement autonomy, so that sould really be fixed -.-

Apparently hypercube didnt remember all the battle results, as we also did a T15 vs that Blue beam klingon ship. T15 won 1vs1 with still some shields remaining and 16vs16 with only 3 T15s destroyed(some others were damaged).
Now this shows how great it is to mass blue beam ships (according to redshirt )

From the results its also visible that the V13 is the worst battleship by a big big margin. Its special weapon is awesome tho and I dont mind it being that weak providing the dominion get the dreadnought in V3 As right now the Dominion are lacking a bit of firepower when compared to other races (not counting in the Breen ships).

Also I do not see how this test shows the superiority of Dominion and Klingons vs the Federation as u have to remember that the battle between Sovie, NeghVar and Breen battleship was always very close. And as Martok was the Klingon avatar it gives the NeghVar defence bonus (+3) and Breen battleship is also an avatar special ship, which means it cant always be built. Sovie did not recieve any bonuses
Sabre as I mentioned has long range and u can usually keep other ships, like bops, from comming into range. Akira should loose vs Vorcha due to Vorchas special weapon and the sheer cost of Vorcha.
Monsoon lost vs Kvort because its a small ship and the Kvort has pulses
Intrepid is also a small ship and Breen cruiser has pulses, so it should win. Plus it costs more
Excelsiors owned B5s, and B5 only won 1vs1 cause of its special weapon (which does not fire on its own -.-)
Defiants owned T15s: This is ok due to Defiants cost
And Akiras owned C17.
See I do not see how Federation is inferior to either Klingons or the Dominion, all you have to do is choose your ships visely I would also like to mention that Federation ships are more all-round ships with phasers being their primary weapons, so they are equally good vs everything. While Dominion and Klingon have more "special" ships with pulses or torpedos as primary weapons, meaning that you can outsmart the Klingons or the Dominion far easily than the Federation. Just a thought

posted on September 3rd, 2006, 1:36 pm

i know all this, but the fact is, that the federation won completelly, 4 times out of 18 battles and when it lost it was never close, now i'm not arguing with you, i already said that the federation makes up for it with other stuff, so there is no need to say it again.

posted on September 3rd, 2006, 3:38 pm

i know all this, but the fact is, that the federation won completelly, 4 times out of 18 battles and when it lost it was never close, now i'm not arguing with you, i already said that the federation makes up for it with other stuff, so there is no need to say it again.

Yeah, Im not arguing with you either. I was just annoyed at your use of this sentance:
"I believe that this test suggests if not prooves the extreme superiority of klingons and dominion over the federation"

And I had to enlighten you and everyone else why were those results as they were, because the way you describe it it seems the feds are some underdogs who have to rely on masses to destroy their enemies, when in fact it is the other way around

[Anonymous]

posted on September 3rd, 2006, 10:26 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on September 3rd, 2006, 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Apparently hypercube didnt remember all the battle results, as we also did a T15 vs that Blue beam klingon ship. T15 won 1vs1 with still some shields remaining and 16vs16 with  only 3 T15s destroyed(some others were damaged).
Now this shows how great it is to mass blue beam ships (according to redshirt )

Um, no, actually, it doesn't. I already said that both that the "blue beam ships" as you so intellegently call them are superior when combined with a more varied fleet and that when massed they were ineffective against large groups of destroyers or other smaller ships.

In conclusion, you proved... nothing! Way to go!

-edit

And I had to enlighten you and everyone else why were those results as they were, because the way you describe it it seems the feds are some underdogs who have to rely on masses to destroy their enemies, when in fact it is the other way around wink.gif

Well, considering that the fed's most effective "balanced" tactic (ie not the defiant) is destroyer swarming, your claims that they are not a massing type race just seems... stupid, for lack of better word.

posted on September 3rd, 2006, 11:08 pm

Um, no, actually, it doesn't. I already said that both that the "blue beam ships" as you so intellegently call them are superior when combined with a more varied fleet and that when massed they were ineffective against large groups of destroyers or other smaller ships.

In conclusion, you proved... nothing! Way to go!

in conclusion: you still havent completely grasped the point behind this topic. But fear not, you have to be close to it by now, keep trying dude

[Anonymous]

posted on September 4th, 2006, 12:20 am

Last edited by Anonymous on September 4th, 2006, 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

No, I have grasped the point, unless you mean some new point that I havn't been informed of.

It seems like quite a while back that I acknowledged that the Defiant is OP.

In fact, I never disputed it.

So if you could stop chasing rabbits just to determine something you've already decided for yourself- that I'm an ingnorant son of a ***** who doesn't know the first thing about life and has no concept of reality- then mabye, just mabye, we can wrap up this pointless thread, since we all agree.

posted on September 4th, 2006, 12:32 am

I'm neutral in this.

You spelled concept Wrong.

And the Akira is a powerful ship when massed, trust me.

posted on September 4th, 2006, 12:55 am

Meh, typo. Corrected.