The B'rel by Boggzy

posted on October 28th, 2010, 8:13 pm

Weapon Fatigue is definitely a step in the right direction, but it needs to be powered up.  1 B'rel can't kill anything, and it's impossible to WF just the ship that gets the kill, so right now the only option is to WF every Brel in your fleet which will cost more supply than you get back.  Not to mention the fact that a Brel will rank up for almost any kill it makes already.

thats not true, if u use the whole pack to weaken a miner, then switch all the ships to a new target, pick 1 brel and wf and use that to get the finishing blow. this requires serious micro though.

posted on October 29th, 2010, 2:27 am

B'rel are too weak to run around uncloaked...  Weapon fatigue doesn't get much use from me...

posted on October 29th, 2010, 3:49 am

thats not true, if u use the whole pack to weaken a miner, then switch all the ships to a new target, pick 1 brel and wf and use that to get the finishing blow. this requires serious micro though.

Yes but doing this will prevent you from killing other miners or watching for the inevitable counterattack.  When I said impossible I meant unfeasible.  It takes more attention away from other things than it's worth.

posted on October 29th, 2010, 3:59 am

Good way to put that, Tryptic .  WF is generally just more trouble than it's worth.  Too much micro to make good use of supply gain, no cloak in or out, and the stat boost goes away when you make a kill, sending your newly ranked B'rel back to the bottom of the target list with no energy for cloak.

Again just more trouble than it's worth to be a feasible common ability.

posted on October 29th, 2010, 7:30 am

I agree partly. I'll just through in what I wrote on the other thread:

I played the B'rel to quite an extent in the last games, I think that ship is often underestimated and quite fine in 3.1.3, however, there are some things that still make it difficult to use.
The build time: A B'rel needs 76sec, that's longer than other races need for their basic ships(Sabre 69, Rhienn 62(!), Bug 59). During that time you won't be able to build K'Vorts and if you don't need K'Vorts it is not very effective to double yard B'Rels imo. You need a lot B'rels to do appropriate damage, 5-8 are usually effective.
I got an  idea on this: Make the B'Rel buildable in starbase or in the other parts of the Field yard, too. I don't think anybody will be concerned about a B'rel spam, as it is useful against miners and long range only. Although ... The other solution would be to just decrease the building time of B'rels.

Another issue: weapon fatigue
It's a nice special, but in my eyes very hard to micro if you want to use it with success(i.e. getting ressources back). Klingons are in need of supplies so you won't give them away for a fast firing B'rel. Immediate ranking up is not that impressive since B'rels also rank up easily without the special. Plus you are left without cloak when using it. My suggestion is to simply take out the supply thing. You are still left without cloak afterwards, what can be very dangerous for fragile B'rels.

Especially compared to the build times of other early game ships the B'rel gets problems. Although I must admit I didn't have a supply problem with them yet(perhaps because I don't wf out of the reasons I mentioned above).
It would be a quite complicated tweaking if one would adjust all the ships the B'rel should counter . Due to that we have to find another use. I'm not really sure about another passive, though. I mean, just take look at the B'rel it is already full of useful systems, giving it another one semms srange.
Right now something else comes to my mind when thinking of way of the warrior: we saw a B'rel lock on it's tractor beam on the freighter: how about combining wf with a tractor beam ability on freighters(instead of another passive)? That way a B'rel could even become dangerous against Borg collectors.

posted on October 29th, 2010, 12:19 pm

You guys realize Weapon Fatigue is plus 3 to Offensive Value and plus 6 to Defensive Value and additional speed for the measly cost of SIX supply  (essentially 26 dil and tri). That's right, you're adding more than half the initial Defensive Value to the B'rel, bringing its base stats to close to that of a K'beajQ for a rather teeny fraction of the price. That Defensive Value is nearly as good as a base Monsoon, while the Offensive Value quite exceeds it. I don't think anybody complains when they pay for torpedoes for the Steamrunner or Nebula Refit, or a myriad of other abilities.

Microing them to kill miners one by one to level up is supposed to be difficult. The ability is supposed to be not without a down side. Many abilities (especially upcoming ones) are designed to have both a macro and a micro side.

As for build times, with the largest number of possible yards on the field (no pun intended) in the quickest amount of time, the Klingons have to be balanced with increased build times. Don't believe me? Test it! Or just go back to 3.1.0-1 and see what happened 

The B'rel can't be good at everything .

posted on October 29th, 2010, 1:44 pm

To be honest, I dont really know how the ability really works...is it a boost for 8 supply every 40s or is it only usable once?

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on October 29th, 2010, 1:56 pm

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on October 29th, 2010, 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Klingon - The Hitchhiker's Guide to Fleet Operations

Weapon Fatigue: At the turning point of a battle, a Klingon warrior will do everything to achieve victory, even if that involves irreparable damage to a ship. The B'rel will automatically gain a new rank if destroying a vessel while the effect of Weapon Fatigue is active, disabling the ability. If ranking up the supplies spent will be returned. Lasts 40 seconds (+3/+6 to Off/Def +10 to speed). Costs 6 supply.  Procured from Field Research.

And then there is of course the description in the Unit Analysis. 

posted on October 29th, 2010, 2:30 pm

I agree partly with you on the balancing of the yard, Dom. Think about it: in order to spam one unit type Klingons have to double yard as other species, but additionally they have low build times, which is only a problem for B'rel/K'vort in my eyes, as was pointed out.
Why building a B'rel if I can get a K'vort 7seconds later, which often isn't that bad against the ships the B'rel should counter? That's of course exaggerated, I love to build B'rels in the right situation.
As I said I don't think the B'rel is useless, but it could still need some tweaking. Perhaps just lowering the amount of supplies for wf would be something to start with. Nobody cares about the Triloader supply costs because Feds don't get supply problems and you can destroy a mining station with it .
I think the problem about weapon fatigue is that you can't(or shouldn't) use it in fleet actions, because you'll run out of supplies then. I'll test wf because of that discussion a little more often now .

posted on October 29th, 2010, 2:48 pm

You guys realize Weapon Fatigue is plus 3 to Offensive Value and plus 6 to Defensive Value and additional speed for the measly cost of SIX supply  (essentially 26 dil and tri). That's right, you're adding more than half the initial Defensive Value to the B'rel, bringing its base stats to close to that of a K'beajQ for a rather teeny fraction of the price. That Defensive Value is nearly as good as a base Monsoon, while the Offensive Value quite exceeds it. I don't think anybody complains when they pay for torpedoes for the Steamrunner or Nebula Refit, or a myriad of other abilities.

Microing them to kill miners one by one to level up is supposed to be difficult. The ability is supposed to be not without a down side. Many abilities (especially upcoming ones) are designed to have both a macro and a micro side.

As for build times, with the largest number of possible yards on the field (no pun intended) in the quickest amount of time, the Klingons have to be balanced with increased build times. Don't believe me? Test it! Or just go back to 3.1.0-1 and see what happened 

The B'rel can't be good at everything .

When you're playing a faction that needs every bit of supply it has, that six adds up. Klingons can't always be hyper-offensive and rankup to get lots of supply.
Noone complains about Steamie or Nebula costs because Feds have supply to spare almost always.

The added values are great when you have a lone B'rel (only one use so only 6 supply gone) in a situation where it needs that boost, but the ability can't  be used right after cloaking. That means you're probably going to lose the B'rel before it can stand a chance. Same goes for a B'rel with a fleet, except then you have to worry about the B'rel not ranking up, thus wasting supply, and of course B'rels will be targeted first unless you have K'tingas.

Please don't compare B'rels to Monsoons, you don't have to waste 60 supply to get 10 Monsoons their good stats, but you do have to for B'rels. A fleet of 10 B'rels is useless, you just can't micro their special fast enuff, even if you do manage to get the energy for it.
I only build fleets of B'rels for raiding if I'm very low on resources, in all other areas. K'vorts just plain do better (remember that awesome +6 defense you mentioned? Well, now remember how K'vorts have +8 defense compared to B'rel without using their special...)

The downsides to the special are just too great for what it does. Killing miners is better done with K'vorts, as they will never waste supply and can use hull-hitting torps and can actually not immediately die when a few ships decloak next to them. The K'vorts might even be able to win that battle, B'rels won't, especially once Weapon Fatigue is over.

I think build times could be lowered on just the B'rel, it's not like it's all that hard to kill the things. It doesn't have to be a drastic reduction, I'm sure that a slight build time reduction with some other changes could make B'rels useful again.

Dom, maybe you do have some kind of super-duper micro/macro that makes B'rels useful. Boggz doesn't have that, and probably 99% of the community doesn't either.

posted on October 29th, 2010, 2:50 pm

You guys realize Weapon Fatigue is plus 3 to Offensive Value and plus 6 to Defensive Value and additional speed for the measly cost of SIX supply  (essentially 26 dil and tri). That's right, you're adding more than half the initial Defensive Value to the B'rel, bringing its base stats to close to that of a K'beajQ for a rather teeny fraction of the price.

But its just a temp boost, and if it doesn't make the kill then it is wasted.  You could activate WF on all attacking B'rels to ensure the kill, but in that case building one more B'rel will seem the more practical option.  Especially as not all B'rels will make a kill and therefore its lost supplies.

The amount of micro to use this ability effectively is (in my opinion) simply not worth it.  One stray shot from another ship killing the target and its lost.  Stopping your other ships firing a smidgen too soon and the lone B'rel shooting could find itself unable to make the kill.  

And lets not forget, for the Klingons supply is an issue.  Wasting supplies is simply not an option.

Is there anyone who actually thinks WF is a useful and good ability (besides Dom  :D ) and can use it effectively?

posted on October 29th, 2010, 5:10 pm

Is there anyone who actually thinks WF is a useful and good ability (besides Dom  ) and can use it effectively?

And then there were two.

I will say that you really have made some good posts, Sgt. Cortez.  I'll try and continue the discussion with you via PM if that's ok.  Posting here would mean having to wade through all the "Klingon suPply iz teriblez" posts, and at some point forum discussion comes to an impasse that requires some action.  But no, Dom is not alone in his thinking, Loki.

posted on October 29th, 2010, 5:28 pm

Hey don't count me out!  I actually really LIKE Weapon Fatigue  , but I just feel like it's not the ability that the B'rel needs to adequately perform it's function OR (more importantly) be worth building over the Kvorts or KBQ.

    That's my main concern .  A different function (supply raider) would suit the B'rel better.  Weapon Fatigue might have to change a bit if my ideas were put in place .

posted on November 1st, 2010, 2:25 am

I personally won't use wf because of the 6 supply. It feel like it is to much of a risk to spend 6 supply on a unlikely chance. Brels are the Uboats for the Klingons and WF as is just doesn't feel right because it is like Germany strapping an A-Bomb to a sub and hoping it can get to its target with out being destroyed(it will get destroyed). You could argue that other races like the Romulans have to spend supply on a game of chance with their intell, but their intell isn't being shot at and won't die from one stupid turret or Monsoon. Maybe lower supply cost if any or some other special that makes it excell being the Klingon Uboat.

posted on November 1st, 2010, 8:31 am

I did some testing now with wf and must admit that I have to change my opinion on it. It is really much better than it seems to be. It is easy and cheap to research and actually, due to being a replacement weapon and the increase of speed it allows for even better retreating than the damn slow Klingon cloak could. That way you can use it for different purposes: either when raiding minings and get the aditional supply with microing, or you activate it when it gets nasty for one of your B'rels to retreat or pull through out some damage.
I can't really say now if the supply costs are too high for that. It's just not a simple "pushthebuttonanddestroysomething" weapon like most of the other Klingon ones.
But I still vote for a B'rel build time decrease  .