The B'rel by Boggzy

[Boggz]

posted on October 28th, 2010, 1:48 am

Last edited by Boggz on October 28th, 2010, 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

There was a very nice thread started about the B'rel by Marion Hope and rather than totally hijack it I thought I'd start my own thread for the B'rel (again) .


   I am proposing that the B'rel's stats and basic systems remain exactly as they are now, but that it gains a new function as a supply raider and a different supply cost.  Most early game ships buildable that the B'rel should counter have some inherent form of resistance or value against the B'rel itself.

Bomber:  FTC passive means that hits landed do 50% more damage.
T-15:  Ablative armor and long range pulses.
B-8:  All Your B'rels are Belong to Us   Takes only 1 second longer to build .
Sang:  Cake for the B'rel
Saber:  Pulse/Torp avoidance plus an active that reduces short range damage + Better build time / range.
Excel I:  Cake for the B'rel but it's not buildable 
Canaveral:  FTC + extra damage to small vessels.  Still a good unit for B'rels to counter due to it's cost/speed.
Excel II:  B'rels still rock against em
Dodes:  Cake for B'rels
Assimilator:  Depending on it's build, can either be cake or your worst nightmare .
Rhienns:  Phase Plates + B'rel-eating Disruptor upgrade.  I still use B'rels vs. Rhienns 


  Overall that's not an encouraging lineup of things the B'rel SHOULD counter.  Most things are fully capable of handling B'rels and are unlikely to be outproduced as B'rels take 76 seconds.

Current Stats on the B'rel:
[tt]OV:  15 (17)
DV:  11
SV:  5
Speed: 140
Crew:  30
Di:  296
Tri: 110
Sup: 12
Build Time: 76 seconds[/tt]

  This combination of stats relieved the problem of B'rel spam present in core patches like 3.0.7.  The addition of Manual Targetting for cloak detect, Weapon Fatigue for ... something ... and the limitation of buildability from only 1 hangar on the Field Yard prevented a massive B'rel spam while ensuring that it was always available.

   However, I believe that the B'rels purpose as a fast interceptor of Long-Range units is offset by the fact that it is incredibly difficult to keep them alive, thus giving them a very poor cost-effectiveness.  My suggestion is to keep it an interceptor of long-range units, but also to make it a supply raider.  The B'rel would act almost like a "farmer" of supply by making constant attacks on vulnerable vessels.

  I propose this: 

• Reduce the Supply cost to something distinctly different than the K'vort (the more powerful ship that prevents building of the B'rel).  Frankly I feel that 6-8 would be appropriate.
• Increase the supply GAIN of the B'rel per rankup.

  And maybe:

• Passive that slightly increases damage to unarmed vessels (perhaps just to replace Taq the Pirate's extra supply gain on rankup which would not now be necessary 

  Counter Arguments:

  The biggest concern I've heard to this proposal is actually a good one.  With such a low supply cost, B'rels could be made endlessly with the supply given at the start.  This is true.  I don't feel that this is in any way a problem though as B'rels have already been proven to last very little time in combat and not perform well against even the ships they are supposed to counter.  Even massed B'rels would cost you 100 to 150+ supply for Taq and half that for Martok just to even consider being able to mass produce them.

   I don't feel the Lower Supply Cost and the higher Supply Gain would throw the B'rel out of balance because the B'rels actual ship-to-ship combat performance would remain the same.  They will still be swatted away as they are now, but losing them will not be QUITE such an atrocious loss of 12 supply (18 if you were brave enough to use Weapon Fatigue).



   Canon Reasoning:  (cause where would we be without it? )

  The very first time we see a Klingon B'rel Class Bird of Prey in Star Trek is in Star Trek 3: The Search for Spock.  Dr. Emmett Brown in blackface is the captain and they somehow know about Genesis.  They promptly destroy a petty and unarmed freighter-type ship (sound familiar ?:badgrin:) and run off to play with Genesis.

  The Interior of Bird of Prey's has also been throroughly explored by the movies and the shows.  They are clearly not well-stocked vessels.  Minimal crew accomodations, science equipment, and apparently shabby Dilithium Crystals (ST:IV), they are meant to be expandable for honor!

   After that we see plenty of them.  Sometimes they are the friends of the Heroes, other times they are spectacular cannon fodder for Dominion Bugs. 

Either way, they are either making raids on facilities:  (Once More Unto the Breach, DS9)

Raiding scummy Cardassian Council Transports:  (Way of the Warrior, Part 1)

Or taking torpedo hits / Bugs rams for larger ships :  (WoTW, Part 2 / Any battle in DS9 )


   The B'rel is a totally common ship for the Klingons, yet it's uses in Fleetops are very specialized right now.  I think this change would be a great way for a Klingon player to field B'rels as "filler" when they need to be producing ships nonetheless but cannot afford a heavier Vorcha or KBQ class cruiser.

posted on October 28th, 2010, 3:37 am

I totally agree with boggz, brels have no point to be made right now..... to further give refrences in ds9 we always see brels in packs of 3-4, and in a game now.... i never build brels, sure the cloak detect thing is nice, that is if they dont die in the first 2 seconds...

posted on October 28th, 2010, 3:44 am

The buildtime is something that confused me about the B'rel. It's a rather simplistic warship compared to the others in the fleet and has been in production for at least a century, shouldn't Klingon engineers have enough experience with the class to get it out a bit faster?

It seems strange that it is so slow to build compared to its counterparts. All the others are in the 60s but the B'rel is over 70?

posted on October 28th, 2010, 3:47 am

That is also true as well tyler, honestly how hard is it to attach two wings with guns to some engines?

posted on October 28th, 2010, 4:50 am

I agree with Boggz. Even the mixed yard brel isn't good enough for much. The whole reason brels were good is because of mass production, but with the long build time at least make them cheaper. Since they are produced from a specialized yard now Klingons need to get an advantage some how, and I think if I could que up 10 brels and create a few wolf packs that could rake in supply, it would definitly make the brel a stable unit...until turrets or bigger vessels.

posted on October 28th, 2010, 5:52 am

I like it, i like it a lot.  When I was playing as the Klingons I always felt that B'rels just died too easily.  However, if there was some special reason to build them (such as the supply raiding) then this would make them a lot more attractive even accepting that you are going to loose them by the bucketload.

posted on October 28th, 2010, 5:59 am

Just to rehash a tiny bit:  I don't think the B'rels di/tri price should drop at all.  Just the supply price.


  And to those worried about triple-yard spammed B'rels wreaking havoc - all spammable units have counters .  B'rels are DEFINITILY no exception .

  Right off the top of my mind - Bugs, Frigates, Intrepid / Monsoon, Scubes, Kvorts or Vorcha.  There's a counter for each race .

posted on October 28th, 2010, 11:01 am

Hm, we already introduced weapon fatigue to improve its defense and add addtional supply raiding potential, but i will take a look

posted on October 28th, 2010, 1:25 pm

i think with weapon fatigue, i'like the idea, but to get profit on supply u need to micro very very much. If u use wf on a brel, that particular brel must get a kill, which defeats the idea of using them in packs. Maybe if the brel is near a kill that happens, then it should get the rankup.

posted on October 28th, 2010, 2:44 pm

i think with weapon fatigue, i'like the idea, but to get profit on supply u need to micro very very much. If u use wf on a brel, that particular brel must get a kill, which defeats the idea of using them in packs. Maybe if the brel is near a kill that happens, then it should get the rankup.

We have this synergy thing coming.  Maybe if one B'rel has it activated then any B'rel nearby making a kill counts.

posted on October 28th, 2010, 3:02 pm

Just like a b'rel makes a kill and if that b'rel doesn't have weapon fat, a random b'rel nearby with wf activated will get the level up?

edit: maybe not a random one but the closest one with wf activated

posted on October 28th, 2010, 3:53 pm

We have this synergy thing coming.  Maybe if one B'rel has it activated then any B'rel nearby making a kill counts.

Are Klingons the type to share credit for a kill with others? Though, sharing kills does sound like a good Klingon Klingon counterpart to the Federation's synergy.

posted on October 28th, 2010, 3:57 pm

well all the klingon forces are under the same general, so maybe they would share honour/supply for the good of the unit/empire

posted on October 28th, 2010, 5:01 pm

I like the idea of Klingons having at least one ship that actually gains more supply on rankup than it costs to build, that'd make them nice little raiders in packs and you can keep them underpowered for fleets.

Weapon Fatigue is definitely a step in the right direction, but it needs to be powered up.  1 B'rel can't kill anything, and it's impossible to WF just the ship that gets the kill, so right now the only option is to WF every Brel in your fleet which will cost more supply than you get back.  Not to mention the fact that a Brel will rank up for almost any kill it makes already.

Here is my suggestion for Weapon Fatigue: remove the supply cost and give it an additional effect that if the Brel kills a miner or constructor it gets either 2 rank ups or you get as many supply as that ship cost to build.  Since Brels are losing their anti-long range role, their new role can be mining raids. 

posted on October 28th, 2010, 5:32 pm

Hm, we already introduced weapon fatigue to improve its defense and add addtional supply raiding potential, but i will take a look

  Thank you