some ideas i have

posted on February 8th, 2010, 8:16 am

"#2 Infinite research... well, in one ingame-day your technology status would grew up over the last 300 years... Well... no. It would destroy the game, because you just sit there, do your research faster than others and then you simply crush an entire fleet with a scout ship. Thats pathetic."

its not pathetic at all, the only reason why that scout ship could defeat that enemy fleet is because that enemy decided not to do any research himself, because that enemy just decided to spam spam spam. it makes perfect sense.

imagine if the federation of planets decided not to do any research and jus make lots of crappy old ships that kirk used to command in TOS, and then the federation comes up against the romulans who have the latest tech but fewer ships. the feds are gona get their asses kicked.

as time goes by technology improves, thats the real world.

its like America having a few f-22 fighter jets going up against north africa that have millions of ppl armed with sticks and mud, who u think gona win? duh america obviously coz they got beter tech. 

is there no way that infinite research can be implemented? i know u say the game cant have any more research in it but surely there must be a workaround of some sort...? anyone? 

posted on February 8th, 2010, 10:16 am

its not pathetic at all, the only reason why that scout ship could defeat that enemy fleet is because that enemy decided not to do any research himself, because that enemy just decided to spam spam spam. it makes perfect sense.

No, it doesnt makes any sense, because it is a game. With your argument, the whole strategic freedom for this game would totally be lost. You cant choose from building small strike forces or a few big battleships, artillery strikes or hit & run - you just do research. Well, no - then I go on and play Civ.

imagine if the federation of planets decided not to do any research and jus make lots of crappy old ships that kirk used to command in TOS, and then the federation comes up against the romulans who have the latest tech but fewer ships. the feds are gona get their asses kicked.

Two questions: Is the federation real? No. So you cant argue in tech dev because it is all fiction.
Next question: Even when you could argue in a causal way, why would it even then not happen? Because they would NOT decide to halt their research. And where is the research done? On a battlefield or in labs?
How long does it takes to invent a new shield technology, if we go on real? 2 years. Have fun playing the game...

its like America having a few f-22 fighter jets going up against north africa that have millions of ppl armed with sticks and mud, who u think gona win? duh america obviously coz they got beter tech.

Yeah, like in Vietnam. Your logic is impressive.

posted on February 8th, 2010, 12:22 pm

wow Sheva ur quite upset about this i can see  shame

u shouldnt get so upset, its just my view point on what i would like to see in the mod, im not the only one who would like it in the mod.

[Sheva]

posted on February 8th, 2010, 12:45 pm

Last edited by Sheva on February 8th, 2010, 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well yes, unlimited research might be something for a long range game like birth of the federation - a civ-simulation.
This is more like command & conquer and it would just make no fun if you can strike down a V-13 with a klingon construction ship. If you want uber-units, play the borg. The whole community worked for years for a good balancing, they did awesome work on trying everything out, giving specials, forming cost-to-use factors, made large formular-lists, processing-calculations, added new items, changed speed, weapon-behavior, range, balanced offensive and defensive values out, made special weapons new, created new maps and and and...

Your idea would destroy everything. I'm not upset about the idea itself, I'm upset about the way you go over this bunch of work and how you ignore it by simply setting it to obsolete with unlimited research.

Lets try this: Think over a method for unlimited research without destroying the balancing we have until now, and I may give additional ideas and might help you to figure a new system out. But only "I want uber-tech" is no real idea, it is just "I want to win everything without using strategy"

posted on February 8th, 2010, 1:20 pm

well i said in the beginning of the topic that i knew its gona take alot of balancing changes to put unlimited research in the mod. but the thing is once those balance changes have been made(yes it will take a long time) and the unlimited research has been put in the mod, then there will be a really kick ass feature in the game that i think everyone will come to love and enjoy, even u Sheva 

im very grateful for all the work and changes that have been made in the mod, so its not like i want that all to be ripped up and thrown away, i just thought it would be a really nice feature to have.

i think its very strategic tho, coz u have to make the decision about whether to upgrade or build more ships. like "do i need to spread out my forces more? if so ill need to make them tougher?" "wow i really need some extra firepower to combat those tactical cubes. i better upgrade my ships weapons power more" questions like that will come up and i really do think thats a good thing.

but i think we should get Optecs' comment on this, coz after all he(and his) has to do the hard work, if something like this will be implemented  Optec?

but yea ill start thinking of a system to make it work 

posted on February 8th, 2010, 2:52 pm

You don't have to PM me forum topics to get my attention, i already read through the topic, but as always i prefer a small community discussion before posting the opinions of the team.

Upgrades and research are relevant, but they are not intended to be infinite. Having a minor vessel like a scout with +300% damage blasting away battleships would both the unrealistic and no fun. Fleet Operations is a real time strategy game. We have a certain amount of research and upgrading, but its not like in long-term simulation games (like the most famous Civilisation). I don't think we will change the way that upgrades and research work anytime soon

[Tyler]

posted on February 8th, 2010, 4:39 pm

Last edited by Tyler on February 8th, 2010, 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It's good that they're not changing, but seeing people reaction as they lose several Negh'Vars to a Venture could be entertaining.

As for research, could it be a bit more race-specific? Like Federation getting better shield upgrades, while Klingon weapons upgrades being better for example. Only specific alterations for races that share the same system upgrades.

posted on February 8th, 2010, 5:05 pm

Battleships already get owned by massing 3.1.1 destroyers.  That's not enough for people. Now they want scouts to be able to own Battleships.   We should call it Star Trek Armada 2:  Scout Operations!

posted on February 8th, 2010, 5:14 pm

Nononononononononono! That is never happening!

posted on February 8th, 2010, 5:50 pm

Lol I think you should all calm down before you have a panic attack and vomit  .


  I don't think he was really intending for a scout to have 300% inreased damage ... given the way the upgrades work and cost anyway, can we project how much that would cost? 


  I get what he was going for, I think though that practically it's impossible at the moment because the upgrades are global ODF's and you have to have one for each upgrade.  You can't actually have infinite unless they redo the way the upgrades work.

posted on February 8th, 2010, 6:51 pm

hey all

i thought of a few things that i think can make fleetops better.

Nothing can make FO better!  Jeez!  Thought people would've realized this by now!! :-p

1. salvage. every time a ship is destroyed, it leaves behind a wreckage which can be harvested by a mining vessel to get back some of the resources that it took to make. ie 20% of the resources back.

Mining vessels are pretty slow and not really a good salvage ship.  Also, salvaging burnt and damaged metal wouldn't really be efficient, running out to get it, then towing/hauling it back.  Further, more than likely an antimatter explosion would make everything explode into the smallest of pieces of dust.

2. infinite research. ie let every side have research that can never end, ie ship hull, ship shields, ship weapons, ship regeneration, damage reduction etc. say i research 'ship hull' it gives a bonus of 5% to all ships hull and costs 500 dilithium and 1000 trititaium, next time i can research it again and get another 5% bonus to ship hull but this time it will cost me 750 dilithium and 1500 trititaium, and the next time another 5% bonus but costs me 1000 dilithium 2000 trititaium and so on and so on till infinity.

This cannot be balanced.  I've read you saying that it can be and I can assure you, it cannot be balanced.  The variables in the math don't add up.  Plus, as ppl have already said, it would be very unrealistic seeing a Newton class repair ship decimating a Tactical Cube.

3. Trading. i really miss the trade stations and trading with other players or yourself, like it was in vanilla armada 2. please bring it back

Turn on ally trading....nuff said.  It takes away from combat to have trading stations.  If you're trying to defeat someone, you'll do it on the battlefield.  This isn't Monopoly. 

4. ship automation. it would be so great if one can build say 2 borg tac cubes and put them under AI control and then the AI will use them to go attack this or defend that without u having to issue the orders urself. because i find that being human, i cant keep track of so many things at once in the game, like "oh i need to baby sit my big fleet thats attacking here" and then "oh crap, im being attacked at my main base" and then "oh no my one mining base it under attack" then i have to neglect my main fleet while i sort the other problems out. so would be nice if i could have some ships under ai control that will go sort out stuff like this for me, and then i can do the main jobs. have i made any sense??? 

More automation?  Really?!  This is a Strategy game.  If you want a game to play itself, why bother playing it?

[Tyler]

posted on February 8th, 2010, 6:56 pm

Last edited by Tyler on February 8th, 2010, 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Turn on ally trading....nuff said.  It takes away from combat to have trading stations.  If you're trying to defeat someone, you'll do it on the battlefield.  This isn't Monopoly. 

Convoy duty is a part of warfare, and more realistic than transporting resources across a sector. You may remember Klingon ships and the Defiant escorting freighters several times during the war (during the Klingon incident for the Defiant).

It's much better to have actual interaction between you and your allies. Battlefield victories are only part of it. If you're going to take that outlook, you might as well say that infinate resources and all ships, stations and research should already be pre-completed.

posted on February 8th, 2010, 7:22 pm

Convoy duty is a part of warfare, and more realistic than transporting resources across a sector. You may remember Klingon ships and the Defiant escorting freighters several times during the war (during the Klingon incident for the Defiant).

It's much better to have actual interaction between you and your allies. Battlefield victories are only part of it. If you're going to take that outlook, you might as well say that infinate resources and all ships, stations and research should already be pre-completed.

That is a good point Tyler....but you can already trade resources via ally trading.  If your goal is to defeat the enemy as quick as possible and you have an instant trading system, why would you want to implement something that takes more time AND has a chance to be destroyed.  You'd get those ppl (like me :-p ) who would just camp the trading station.  I'd much rather just stick to insta-trade.

posted on February 8th, 2010, 7:34 pm

this topic reminds me of a famous phrase : "people are afraid of change".

but i see it cant and wont be done, thats cool with me. dnt get me wrong even if fleet ops stayed just the way it is now without ever getting any new updates i would still be as happy as a fat kid in a candy store  . just adding my two cents to the forum.

at least it sparked a good debate  got everyone thinking 

posted on February 8th, 2010, 7:36 pm

That is a good point Tyler....but you can already trade resources via ally trading.  If your goal is to defeat the enemy as quick as possible and you have an instant trading system, why would you want to implement something that takes more time AND has a chance to be destroyed.  You'd get those ppl (like me :-p ) who would just camp the trading station.  I'd much rather just stick to insta-trade.

The chance of being destroyed is one part of the station that is both realistic and exactly the same as mining stations, vulnerable and need to be protected. The same logic could also make Freighters that double as mobile mining stations or an 'Instant Mine' feature seem better for the game because the current version takes more time and can be destroyed easily.

Plus, I also used escorted cargo ships to 'connect' all my distant bases to the main one back in stock, even if Trading wasn't immediatly needed. Always made me feel that they weren't alone.

Instant Trade was there so that people could pick which type they preferred, like every other toggle option in the game. A game the forces everyone to do everything the same way is a bad game.