[Request/Balance] - Federation Warp-Ins

posted on May 21st, 2011, 4:59 pm

Personally I like it how it is with the warp in's and the rare ones. However I do think they need to be more costly, perhaps have a supply cost to start with. So players will really only use them for early game boosts to their fleet, or for the Descent and Teutoburg. One thing that can be annoying is Fed players who use warp-ins all the time and only build destroyers and intrepids during their game then brag that they only researched chas 1.

Yes some Excelsiors in TNG and DS9 have regestry numbers much higher than many Ambassadors. Ambassadors were introduced somewhere before 2344 (Yesterday's Enterprise), which is 50 years after the Excelsior was, however many of the original Excelsiors would've been retired or close to it by then.

The Ambassador never out produced the Excelsior, the design (Excelsior) proved to be reliable and Ambassadors were costly. I think I read somewhere (canon or not) that the costs of one Ambassador equaled to 3 excelsiors or something. As for the age thing, many Excelsiors in FO were no doubt built in the 2340 or 50 or perhaps during the Dominion war to boost numbers quickly. So I have no issues personally about Excelsior in FO. Also at the time of the Ambassador's introduction the Galaxy and Nebula classes were alredy being worked on, but there were numerious delays which caused the Nebula not to be launched till the mid/late 2350's and the Galaxy the follow decade in the early 2360's. Plus I think I also ready (canon this time I believe... god I hate that word sometimes) that the Sovereign herself was on the drawing board in the 2350's. Pretty much Starfleet researches a replacement as soon as the previous one hits shelves. That way they keep progressing rather than fall behind other powers.

Just my two cents.

I never said the Ambassador outproduced the Excelsior, but it did replace the Excelsior as flagship-top of the line ship. While production may have continued after the introduction of the Ambassador, it is safe to assume that the production would have slowed down.

Take into account losses due to astronomical phenomena and phasing out of the earlier produced vessels and the reserve of Excelsior class vessels will not be as large as some here claim.

A small decrease in the odds of receiving an Excelsior and a small increase in odds for more modern designs (nova Refit and centaur) FO can better reflect the current inventory of Starfleet reserves while maintaining balance.

posted on May 21st, 2011, 5:04 pm

Also take into account that losses due to nature are not something guaranteed to happen and the show never made such losses seem that big. Only a ship or two every now and then.

posted on May 21st, 2011, 5:06 pm

if we go for too much accuracy then starfleet will have to warpin akiras and sabres and other buildable ships too. as they are in the fleet. we'd have a tiny chance of seeing older designs like galaxy.

posted on May 21st, 2011, 5:17 pm

if we go for too much accuracy then starfleet will have to warpin akiras and sabres and other buildable ships too. as they are in the fleet. we'd have a tiny chance of seeing older designs like galaxy.

I wouldn't be opposed to that idea even though i really like the Galaxy.

posted on May 21st, 2011, 5:21 pm

I wouldn't be opposed to that idea even though i really like the Galaxy.

i like it too, but it waters down the method of getting old ships, which is a purpose of warpin in game.

posted on May 21st, 2011, 6:25 pm

i like it too, but it waters down the method of getting old ships, which is a purpose of warpin in game.

Right now the old ships are nearly all Excelsiors and IMO it would be a small price to pay to get a bit more variation in the warp-in.

Proposals for alternate warp-in vessels such as the Achilles (DS9 Dominion War), Prometheus or Premonition are either shot down in flames or put on a long term waiting list. With this proposal we get more variation (and less predictability) in the warp-in while still enjoying those oldies warp in to get blown to bits.

posted on May 21st, 2011, 6:48 pm

Of course it could totally destroy balance...

posted on May 21st, 2011, 6:59 pm

Of course it could totally destroy balance...

And if pigs had (really strong) wings they could fly..

In some situations an Excelsior is more useful than a Saber. An Akira and Ambassador are closely matched in stats and depending on the situation either one has pro/cons.

Additional to that: we are not proposing to remove excelsiors all together, we are merely proposing to increase the odds of the rarest of warp-ins and add small chances for regular ships (low level such as Saber or Akira) to be warped in.

posted on May 21st, 2011, 7:03 pm

Hmm, Akira is chassis level 2.  What happens if you get a rhode island, sensor neb and an akira?  If that's your first warp-in.... you are well ahead of your opponent.

posted on May 21st, 2011, 7:35 pm

Hmm, Akira is chassis level 2.  What happens if you get a rhode island, sensor neb and an akira?  If that's your first warp-in.... you are well ahead of your opponent.

If your Klingon or Romulan you have nothing to worry about since the biggest hitter is weak against pulse weapons.

The Akira is a generalist, no bonus no drawback. Without its special however it is not powerful enough to present a threat on its own.

The only thing the Nebula brings is bulk. No real threat, but a friendly exp package for your opponent.

Borg are even less vulnerable, Dominion production can have a sizable fleet ready when a warp-in shows its face. The only ones who might struggle with such a warp-in is the federation whom can counter it with a warp-in of their own.

To be honest i fail to see a balance problem. Unless we include hysteria, there is no balance problem if the ratios are only adjusted by small amounts.

posted on May 21st, 2011, 9:19 pm

To be honest i fail to see a balance problem. Unless we include hysteria, there is no balance problem if the ratios are only adjusted by small amounts.

I respectfully disagree.  Improving the quality ships in warp-in can be quite brutal.  I'm not sure if you play a lot online, but early warp-in can be pretty painful against certain races such as the Borg.

[Andre27]

posted on May 21st, 2011, 9:47 pm

Last edited by Andre27 on May 21st, 2011, 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I respectfully disagree.  Improving the quality ships in warp-in can be quite brutal.  I'm not sure if you play a lot online, but early warp-in can be pretty painful against certain races such as the Borg.

The Borg are mid-late game monsters.. anything is dangerous to them early ingame.

Consider that each of the vessels in the warp-in are vessels are situational. They can be dangerous in certain situations, but in general they are easily disposed off.

Off course not all vessels should make it to the warp-in (Powerhouses such as the Sovereign and Defiant should be left out), but given certain restrictions the stats of chassis 1&2 vessels doesn't differ much from the stats of the warp-in vessels so balance would not be affected.

There are off course those who believe that warp-in is always OP, but that is yet another story children. Now close your eyes and go to sleep. Daddy checked that there are no big bad unbalanced federation warp-ins under the bed...

posted on May 22nd, 2011, 12:29 pm

There are off course those who believe that warp-in is always OP, but that is yet another story children. Now close your eyes and go to sleep. Daddy checked that there are no big bad unbalanced federation warp-ins under the bed...

How is talking disrespectfully and downgrading your fellow gamers and peers going to get your point and opinion across any better. In fact it's just going to upset members and/or get them to think "Should avoid this guy, if the best he can do is insult me when I try to reason with him and give him another opinion or point of view".

I have already decided just be reading your last couple of posts there is no point in discussing or debating this issue with you as you have already made your mind up and everyone else who disagrees with you is wrong.

I hope you enjoy your game, perhaps modding your game to do as you wish might be a better alternative than trying to convince the Development team to unbalance the game to make you happy.

Good night and have fun playing and modding.

[Andre27]

posted on May 22nd, 2011, 1:43 pm

Last edited by Andre27 on May 22nd, 2011, 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

How is talking disrespectfully and downgrading your fellow gamers and peers going to get your point and opinion across any better. In fact it's just going to upset members and/or get them to think "Should avoid this guy, if the best he can do is insult me when I try to reason with him and give him another opinion or point of view".

I have already decided just be reading your last couple of posts there is no point in discussing or debating this issue with you as you have already made your mind up and everyone else who disagrees with you is wrong.

I hope you enjoy your game, perhaps modding your game to do as you wish might be a better alternative than trying to convince the Development team to unbalance the game to make you happy.

Good night and have fun playing and modding.

Peace and quiet at last.. every time something is proposed for the warp-in people come in and complain it is overpowered/will screw up balance. It's annoying at times.

Stop preaching a gospel which has already been proven wrong over and over again.
Contrary to yourself i actually compared the stats from warp-in and regular vessels and came to the conclusion that balance is not an issue.

Sweet dreams with your superiority complex though if you do not wish to discuss things.

Edit: I try to remain respectful, but from time to time i grow tired of people who bring the same already dis-proven arguments over and over again and i lose my temper. The comment was not directed directly at you.

Edit 2: .. or Clintsat

posted on May 23rd, 2011, 7:30 pm

nova refit only has a chance of 3%

the chance of getting excels is high.

where u get that from? we saw very few galaxies in dominion war (like 4 or 5 on screen at once). not many were made, and they suffered losses too. ent D, yamato, odyssey. all gone. leaves venture, galaxy, challenger, named and known to exist. even if u add a few more, thats between a dozen and 2 dozen ships made, and then they moved onto the sovvie.

while for decades they spammed excels, and when constellations were being decommed, the excels were getting refit after refit, apparently they had a good track record. we saw them in huge numbers in the dominion war, and it was the miranda that was the real cannon fodder.

i definitely think excels should have high chances to be around. the fancy ships like galaxies and sovvies would probably be doing the fed's diplomacy things to get new fed members and repair damage done during the dominion war (like in insurrection where picard was sent to get some new allies). while its the excels which are gonna be doing the workhorse stuff, milling around doing low priority things like nebulae surveys and ferrying low priority supplies, and its them that starfleet will send when you cry for help, because their mission isnt really that important.

oh and also there's balance. warpins need to have some weak ships, ambassadors, nebs and galaxies cant be given low stats because they are big strong ships, so we need more of the weaker ships.

structural problems? where'd that come from. they are old, but apparently refit quite well. there was one in the dominion war where its saucer had a big hole punched through by enemy fire, and the hull survived.

the lakota getting a refit so recently is a good sign that the excel isnt too old yet.

You saw way more galaxy class ships in the federation fleets in DS9 than the excell 1 this is a kirk era ship. There were mostly nebulas but i dont recall seeing more than 2 different excell 1s during these battles.

During the dom war the galaxy class production was sped up, but the insides were redesigned for faster production as battleships rather than exploration ships like the enterprise so no holodeck... a more militarty type design. The excell 1 are no longer made.... there can only be so many left that are not mothballed because they arnt worth the effort of a refit.