Platforms

posted on March 5th, 2011, 1:17 pm

Fine! let it be 600 Di 400 Tri. for 50 off and 40 def. artillery and medium range; upgradeable and beam/torp. weapons with a unit cap of 5 or 6.

{storyline: Romulans discovered dominion perimeters in construction at the battle of Cardassia so they steal the research but it is incompatible with Rom. tech. so 20 years later they manage to implement it to their tech and gave it a cloaking device. but unfortunately it's offensive and defensive capabilities were seriously compromised and the tachyon field was inoperable but because of the growing threat posed by the Federation and Klingons and the small size of the platform they have decided to implement it to field operations. But have limited the max amount of units to 5 or 6 because of the superior drain on resources and have implemented a self destruct so that it doesn't get captured and either destroys or heavily damages the opponent's ship.}

Happy?!

posted on March 5th, 2011, 2:59 pm

Big D's rarely appear in matches

this is the example YOU gave.

say in Duel II you fight the Kling's and they expand by putting a HWP

those are very expensive, if they do a HWP i would laugh at them on duel II v1.2, i would laugh all the way to their main expansion, then decloak and wipe out their main base miners. to cover all 3 places they would need 3 HWPs, which costs a fortune.

when you hit Negh'vars they barely got their Warbird yard up.

most games are over before neggies and birds.

Now you might say: "but any race can do that". But any race except the Roms.

dominion cant their turret isnt really that special either, its more cover fire for your fleet. it gets a boost vs shields, which helps a fleet. borg dodecas take time as well, and it takes very little to stop them building.

and with no mid-game turrets those will fall one by one.

you dont NEED turrets in fleetops, thats why its fleet ops and not turret ops. ships are nearly always better than turrets. i go most games with practically no turrets, its better to be offensive than defensive.

Then you might say: "why not give the Klingons extra turrets then". Frankly because 2 or 3 Kling. HWP can detour late-game ships.

2 or 3 HWPs in one spot. you gotta be kidding me, that would break the bank of england! thats a whole fleet worth of money, with no engines, in one place.

I feel that the roms are a bit under powered defensively.

they are weak defensively, they have to be, because they are so strong with 2 second cloak. nearly all their ships are great at raiding. they have to have a downside, that downside is that they cant defend, so they have to think tactically and keep the enemy reacting to them, rather than the other way round.

posted on March 5th, 2011, 4:43 pm

this is the example YOU gave.

I was speaking metaphorically that time. I meant a large fleet

those are very expensive, if they do a HWP i would laugh at them on duel II v1.2, i would laugh all the way to their main expansion, then decloak and wipe out their main base miners. to cover all 3 places they would need 3 HWPs, which costs a fortune.

It would be an ENORMOUS amount of resources but if you mine from your base a two expantions you get (at 5x speed) 850 Di in less than a minute. By the way this was a really bad example I should have said Star Traffic instead. But with 850 Di you could have made a fleet (3 or 4) B'rels and took out all the mining like that. also considering that Rommies have the weakest of all miners

most games are over before neggies and birds.

I was also speaking metaphorically.

dominion cant their turret isnt really that special either, its more cover fire for your fleet. it gets a boost vs shields, which helps a fleet. borg dodecas take time as well, and it takes very little to stop them building.

Doms can use Perimeters and at the beginning of the post I wrote an Idea for smaller Borg turrets

you dont NEED turrets in fleetops, thats why its fleet ops and not turret ops. ships are nearly always better than turrets. i go most games with practically no turrets, its better to be offensive than defensive.

Yes I agree with that. It's just that it opens more possibilities for the Romulans; and in strategy games the more possibilities that are open the more you have a chance of winning

2 or 3 HWPs in one spot. you gotta be kidding me, that would break the bank of england! thats a whole fleet worth of money, with no engines, in one place.

I was just stating that the HWPs were a good powerful unit in the early and late game

they are weak defensively, they have to be, because they are so strong with 2 second cloak. nearly all their ships are great at raiding. they have to have a downside, that downside is that they cant defend, so they have to think tactically and keep the enemy reacting to them, rather than the other way round.

What i'm proposing isn't making them the top defensive team ever to exist; they'ed still be last, even if it's just for the price, but as I said before the more possibilities that are open the more chances you have to win

examples:
      The feds can raid, surprise attack, turtle, tech-up, fed-roll and support other players.
      The Dominion can raid, turtle, tech-up, be very well supported by mixed tech(if they absolutely need it), and cripple
      The Klingons can raid, turtle expansions, cripple and surprise attack
      The Romulans can raid, surprise attack                                                                       
      The Borg can raid (kind of), turtle (not as well because their turrets are expensive), cripple, and Cube(secret weapon)

So in the end who has the least options........ the Romulans what I'm giving will give them the ability to tech and turtle
(if I missed some please state)

posted on March 5th, 2011, 6:01 pm

at 5x speed

why dont u turn unlimited resources on, then you could spam starbases from the start fleetops is balanced for default settings, any other settings throw balance off vastly.

Doms can use Perimeters

they are not early game, they require time and money. they are more useful in team games as well. in a 1v1 i would never make a perimeter as more ships would do a lot more for me.

It's just that it opens more possibilities for the Romulans; and in strategy games the more possibilities that are open the more you have a chance of winning

exactly, if u give the romulans better turrets, they will win more easily, hence becoming op.

I was just stating that the HWPs were a good powerful unit in the early and late game

in the early game on most maps (use duel 2 as an example), a HWP will hurt you, not help you. you cant hope to cover all your mining with HWPs early on, and the cost will leave you with fewer ships.

examples:
      The feds can raid, surprise attack, turtle, tech-up, fed-roll and support other players.
      The Dominion can raid, turtle, tech-up, be very well supported by mixed tech(if they absolutely need it), and cripple
      The Klingons can raid, turtle expansions, cripple and surprise attack
      The Romulans can raid, surprise attack                                                                       
      The Borg can raid (kind of), turtle (not as well because their turrets are expensive), cripple, and Cube(secret weapon)

these examples arent good, as they ignore the strenghts of what each race is good at, ALL races can raid (scubes are awesome) but some can raid better than others.

each race can do everything, but each race can do 1 thing better.

feds are defensive, so better turrets. klinks are offensive, so high dps, and cant take as much damage. dominion are macro intensive, loads of res, spam loads of ships, have high numbers, but their defensive values are lower. romulans are micro intensive, ships cost a lot, but when microd properly they do a lot. borg... are borg lol. they assimilate better, but early on their ships dont quite have enough dps for finishing blows.

romulans raid better than other races, nearly all their ships have 2 second cloak, and they use pulses and beams more than torps. they are raiding masters. rhienns, shrikes obviously great raiders. genfrigs, great as well. other ships are still good, specs are slow, but have pulses, griffins are simple, but have beams that dont miss. leahvals have meta D and auto repair. even late game a few leahvals can make a lot of trouble in exapnsions, even ones with turrets cos of auto repair. nearly every mixed fleet you make will be able to raid.

compare with the feds, who dont harass as well, they dont have cloak. their monsoon is the main raider. the intrep is sorta good cos of speed, but has torps. other ships are generally slower or have torps. they can raid, but not as good as romulans. a mixed fed fleet wont generally be great at raiding, especially since fed ships have a greatly varying speed, some ships are fast, some very slow. so extra micro is needed by splitting into groups.

as a romulan your ships should be doing the job turrets do, raid them, keep them following you around their exps. dont let them even think about coming near your mining, they should be wondering where you are going to strike next. even if u dont get a kill every time, keep them reacting to you, make them fight on your terms. get inside their head.

posted on March 5th, 2011, 6:38 pm

Quote Warz!!! 

I'm smarter than youz

  Nuh uh!!!! 

Yes huh ...

  If you had read my last post you would have seen:  "Nuh uh!".

 

posted on March 6th, 2011, 9:40 am

why dont u turn unlimited resources on, then you could spam starbases from the start fleetops is balanced for default settings, any other settings throw balance off vastly.

X5 speed is default

in a 1v1 i would never make a perimeter as more ships would do a lot more for me.

yes but some people would

exactly, if u give the romulans better turrets, they will win more easily, hence becoming op.

If someone like you, who doesn't like building turrets, plays roms you will never build these turrets because they are too expensive. if some one like me, who likes building turrets, plays roms now, we die every time; so I'm giving extra options to players.

in the early game on most maps (use duel 2 as an example), a HWP will hurt you, not help you. you cant hope to cover all your mining with HWPs early on, and the cost will leave you with fewer ships.

I'm not talking Sooooooo early that it hurts the ship production so much that you lose. and in this post we're talking about the Roms, I just used the HWP as an example for what the turrets of other races can do compared to the Roms.

these examples arent good, as they ignore the strenghts of what each race is good at, ALL races can raid (scubes are awesome) but some can raid better than others.

i'm talking about the things they can do that Won't make them lose the game.(I'm talking about all games in general. A cube in a 1v1 would be stupid

each race can do everything, but each race can do 1 thing better.

Romulans are raid; Federations are Defend; Klingons are attack; Borg are 1 ship terminator; Dominion are spam but the Romulan's defense is 0 while all the others don't have such a weak point

feds are defensive, so better turrets. klinks are offensive, so high dps, and cant take as much damage. dominion are macro intensive, loads of res, spam loads of ships, have high numbers, but their defensive values are lower. romulans are micro intensive, ships cost a lot, but when microd properly they do a lot. borg... are borg lol. they assimilate better, but early on their ships dont quite have enough dps for finishing blows.

I totally agree. Except that feds can attack whenever they want if you've got the skill
Klingons can defend well if you know how
Dominion can be well microed by players
but you can't leave the Romulan ships alone for a while

romulans raid better than other races, nearly all their ships have 2 second cloak, and they use pulses and beams more than torps. they are raiding masters. rhienns, shrikes obviously great raiders. genfrigs, great as well. other ships are still good, specs are slow, but have pulses, griffins are simple, but have beams that dont miss. leahvals have meta D and auto repair. even late game a few leahvals can make a lot of trouble in exapnsions, even ones with turrets cos of auto repair. nearly every mixed fleet you make will be able to raid.

Yes but their defense at expansions are 0 so feds set a yard + phaser turret while Roms attack their base they attack Roms base. Roms get a lot of ships damaged Feds get 2 destroied. Rom expasion lost, Fed expansion still there who wins? Kligs defend with yard and cheap ships Roms defend with more expensive, raiding ships, and yard. Fed calls warpin; Klings calls K'vort/KeabeQ spam. at least klings can pop the miners (which would be a good raid) but now have more offensive ships. fed platforms are a pain to deal with. Rom miners fall like flies.

compare with the feds, who dont harass as well, they dont have cloak. their monsoon is the main raider. the intrep is sorta good cos of speed, but has torps. other ships are generally slower or have torps. they can raid, but not as good as romulans. a mixed fed fleet wont generally be great at raiding, especially since fed ships have a greatly varying speed, some ships are fast, some very slow. so extra micro is needed by splitting into groups.

feds hardly need other ships besides the Mon and the Int for harassing, those are only for early game. No other race is better for raids then the Roms. if there is a fed warpin + build up outside the sensor range of the mining base it can become a main base raider/ crippling fleet. Akiras + Intrepids + monssons + 1 Carnival + warpin ships + (if they have the time) Eraudi yard ships.

as a romulan your ships should be doing the job turrets do, raid them, keep them following you around their exps. dont let them even think about coming near your mining, they should be wondering where you are going to strike next. even if u dont get a kill every time, keep them reacting to you, make them fight on your terms. get inside their head.

Thats the only Rom option. Cloak, Raid, Repair,Cloak, Raid, Repair,Cloak, Raid, Repair,Cloak, Raid, Repair,Cloak, Raid, Repair, Distroy main base. I left the details out but thats the main strategy. other races can afford to not do anything for a while as in stop while teching up knowing you wont meet a fleet that can roll into your mining anytime soon

posted on March 6th, 2011, 10:26 am

I wouldn't say Romulan defence is 0, exactly; I've had a Turret kill a K'beajQ 1-on-1 without losing shields, while a small group of 3-5 can kill an Assimilator if used right.

posted on March 6th, 2011, 11:07 am

I wouldn't say Romulan defence is 0, exactly; I've had a Turret kill a K'beajQ 1-on-1 without losing shields, while a small group of 3-5 can kill an Assimilator if used right.

I know, I exaggerated a bit but you usually don't get enough space for 3-5 turrets (space as in you've got better things to do then to build turrets all day (another exaggeration).

posted on March 6th, 2011, 11:44 am

X5 speed is default

default speed is game speed 3, and when u said "5x" i assumed you meant at a speed 5 times faster than default. push default settings and u will see that game speed 3 is default. game speed 6 is max.

yes but some people would

some people would spam scouts too, its still a mistake, unless you are mort. in a 1v1 building a perimeter before late game is nearly always bad. the only time i would make one would be to protect supply mining, and even then i would think long and hard before not making more ships.

If someone like you, who doesn't like building turrets, plays roms you will never build these turrets because they are too expensive. if some one like me, who likes building turrets, plays roms now, we die every time; so I'm giving extra options to players.

if u want to play turret ops then play as feds, each race has a style that makes them unique, romulan style isnt turtling, they shouldnt have a turtle option, otherwise we go back towards vanilla, where all races were the same.

I'm not talking Sooooooo early that it hurts the ship production so much that you lose. and in this post we're talking about the Roms, I just used the HWP as an example for what the turrets of other races can do compared to the Roms.

in a 1v1 a hwp will slow your production a lot any time before mid to late game. it costs a huge amount.

Romulans are raid; Federations are Defend; Klingons are attack; Borg are 1 ship terminator; Dominion are spam but the Romulan's defense is 0 while all the others don't have such a weak pointI totally agree. Except that feds can attack whenever they want if you've got the skill
Klingons can defend well if you know how
Dominion can be well microed by players

ALL races can do everything. ALL races can defend, all can raid. some are better than others though. i gave the list of ships earlier, romulans are clearly better at raiding than feds. if u take 2 players of equal skill, one as rom one as fed, the rom player can raid better.

so feds set a yard + phaser turret

a yard is enough, no need for both.

Thats the only Rom option. Cloak, Raid, Repair,Cloak, Raid, Repair,Cloak, Raid, Repair,Cloak, Raid, Repair,Cloak, Raid, Repair, Distroy main base. I left the details out but thats the main strategy. other races can afford to not do anything for a while as in stop while teching up knowing you wont meet a fleet that can roll into your mining anytime soon

you need some romulan practice, they can do way more than that. raiding is one of their main tools, but also setting traps is another, and choosing the location of a battle. they have an amazing scout so can know where the fed fleet is at all times. the feds come to your expansion, you know in advance and can be ready. you know where their fleet is, so you can be at another expansion killing their miners. if they never have miners then you can easily outproduce them

I know, I exaggerated a bit but you usually don't get enough space for 3-5 turrets (space as in you've got better things to do then to build turrets all day (another exaggeration).

who needs turrets, use your ships better.

posted on March 6th, 2011, 4:31 pm

default speed is game speed 3, and when u said "5x" i assumed you meant at a speed 5 times faster than default. push default settings and u will see that game speed 3 is default. game speed 6 is max.

My mistake 

in a 1v1 building a perimeter before late game is nearly always bad. the only time i would make one would be to protect supply mining, and even then i would think long and hard before not making more ships.

ok, fine, I give up on the perimeters

if u want to play turret ops then play as feds, each race has a style that makes them unique, romulan style isnt turtling, they shouldnt have a turtle option, otherwise we go back towards vanilla, where all races were the same.

Its not turret ops! did you see the first post of page 2? the turrets hardly got any defense. The Roms seem seriously under-powered expansion-wise. Concidering they've got the weakest miners

in a 1v1 a hwp will slow your production a lot any time before mid to late game. it costs a huge amount.

You're probably right. Try on a 2v2 like Star Traffic, I think thats better

ALL races can do everything. ALL races can defend, all can raid. some are better than others though. i gave the list of ships earlier, romulans are clearly better at raiding than feds. if u take 2 players of equal skill, one as rom one as fed, the rom player can raid better.

Yes, because Its their main job; their early game ships are very Raid oriented.

a yard is enough, no need for both.

ok, it depends on the play style

you need some romulan practice, they can do way more than that. raiding is one of their main tools, but also setting traps is another, and choosing the location of a battle. they have an amazing scout so can know where the fed fleet is at all times. the feds come to your expansion, you know in advance and can be ready. you know where their fleet is, so you can be at another expansion killing their miners. if they never have miners then you can easily outproduce them

I don't have practice because
1) I usually don't tech up that fast
2) When I raid my opponent(s) I seem to get stuck between a shipyard a ten billion ships so when they attack me I have like 2 ships and I lose

who needs turrets, use your ships better.

Turrets are handy when your ships are all out on raiding or attacking the enemy.

posted on March 6th, 2011, 4:51 pm

Its not turret ops! did you see the first post of page 2? the turrets hardly got any defense. The Roms seem seriously under-powered expansion-wise.

yep they are weak at defending their expansions without ships, thats why u have to use your ships to protect your interests. if they could protect their expansions without their fleet (to the degree that feds can do so) then they would be able to keeep their fleet out all day raiding, they could decloak to get more energy and use high system value to repair without returning to a yard, then they could repeatedly raid. they cant be allowed to do that or they would be OP. you have to use your ships to stop raids, whether that be laying traps for raiders or just raiding them so much and in so many places that they stay on the defensive.

You're probably right. Try on a 2v2 like Star Traffic, I think thats better

on star traffic a HWP could be useful in the middle somehwhere. maybe if u rushed a constructor out to the middle moons nearest your enemy (top v bottom setup) you could stop them expanding there, would be super risky as they could cycle repair, you would have to suport the HWP and keep fleet near. a far easier placement would be at the middle moon closest to your team, that would give you a place to retreat to, works best if u are constantly making forays into enemy space. and of course your ally could bankroll you.

When I raid my opponent(s) I seem to get stuck between a shipyard a ten billion ships so when they attack me I have like 2 ships and I lose

when you are raiding with a small force (ie not able to win a fleet battle) and the enemy ships appear on sensors, its time to leg it, run away as fast as you can. if u kill only 1 miner and get out, you did good. i usually run before the ships appear, try to imagine them flying towards your fleet, and know they are coming. of course if they decloak at your own mining, then stay and clean up all their miners.

Turrets are handy when your ships are all out on raiding or attacking the enemy.

they are handy, but are not the only way to stop you losing mining. your fleet could stay near your expansions and fight their fleet off when it comes, or you could repeatedly raid them first, keeping them on the defensive.

posted on March 6th, 2011, 5:03 pm

yep they are weak at defending their expansions without ships, thats why u have to use your ships to protect your interests. if they could protect their expansions without their fleet (to the degree that feds can do so) then they would be able to keeep their fleet out all day raiding, they could decloak to get more energy and use high system value to repair without returning to a yard, then they could repeatedly raid. they cant be allowed to do that or they would be OP.

my new turrets cost a lot and don't have that much more defense.

when you are raiding with a small force (ie not able to win a fleet battle) and the enemy ships appear on sensors, its time to leg it, run away as fast as you can.

tough when fighting B'rels and fed scouts

they are handy, but are not the only way to stop you losing mining. your fleet could stay near your expansions and fight their fleet off when it comes, or you could repeatedly raid them first, keeping them on the defensive.

Its handy to have ships, but turrets stop counter attacks. stops them from saying
"oh, there are all his ships, That expansions lost anyway so let me destroy his expansions as well." It stops, partly, expansion trading.

posted on March 6th, 2011, 5:23 pm

my new turrets cost a lot and don't have that much more defense.

then wouldnt that make them weaker if they cost a lot and dont do much more

tough when fighting B'rels and fed scouts

thats a risk there is always a risk the enemy will be prepared better than you think lol. thats why its best to run BEFORE they get there. and pick a random direction to fleet with your ships, so ventures have a harder time guessing which way you went.

Its handy to have ships, but turrets stop counter attacks. stops them from saying
"oh, there are all his ships, That expansions lost anyway so let me destroy his expansions as well." It stops, partly, expansion trading.

expansion trading is actually pretty common regardless of turrets, since turrets arent that powerful unless you turtle hard.

posted on March 6th, 2011, 7:34 pm

Oh my god you guys ....

 
  Listen:  The turrets are the way that they are to balance out the way the race's gameplay is conducted.

Roms and Klinks can cloak - so they have turrets that are too cost prohibitive to place everywhere.  Ships end up taking the place of turrets in most cases with turrets in critical placement.

Feds and Dominion cannot cloak and are always visible, thus have more easily placed turrets that can stand up better on their own.  Perimeters are NOT a mistake, Myles.  Earlier on they are a very cheap and powerful deterrent with a great ping (if you went big yard).  Using Dominion Phaser turrets is also a very cheap way to prevent excessive raiding from cloakers.  If they go after the turret - they aren't killing your miners.

  Borg have unique turrets because raiding / harassing them is hard enough as it is.  Their turrets are almost as infrequent as Rom / Klink because they simply don't NEED it except in specific situations.


 
  Now both of you stop this pedantic nonsense.  Your points have been made time and time again.  You're both just splitting hairs and it's obnoxious.

posted on March 6th, 2011, 8:02 pm

Oh my god you guys ....
 
  Now both of you stop this pedantic nonsense.  Your points have been made time and time again.  You're both just splitting hairs and it's obnoxious.

get off your high horse, and stop pretending like you can take the moral high road when u just made a wall of text yourself dont imagine that you can tell people what to do either, or we can try the moniker of "officer boggz" 

Roms and Klinks can cloak - so they have turrets that are too cost prohibitive to place everywhere.  Ships end up taking the place of turrets in most cases with turrets in critical placement.

Feds and Dominion cannot cloak and are always visible, thus have more easily placed turrets that can stand up better on their own.  Perimeters are NOT a mistake, Myles.  Earlier on they are a very cheap and powerful deterrent with a great ping (if you went big yard).  Using Dominion Phaser turrets is also a very cheap way to prevent excessive raiding from cloakers.  If they go after the turret - they aren't killing your miners.

we are in agreement on most of this, my opposition is taking the other point.

the point we disagree on:

Perimeters are NOT a mistake, Myles.  Earlier on they are a very cheap and powerful deterrent with a great ping (if you went big yard).  Using Dominion Phaser turrets is also a very cheap way to prevent excessive raiding from cloakers.  If they go after the turret - they aren't killing your miners.

yes they are (remember we are talking about early game here as that is what my original statement was). they take all day to build, and suck away enough money, they are cheaper than other races turrets, but thats because dominion economy is different, requiring supply more. oh and you have to pay to upgrade them with stuff like at charges, which also fry your miners lol. so you gotta buy a tech lab (for large yard), large yard, the perimeter, and some upgrades, you also need some ships.

the biggest constraint is time, which you wont get enough of. trying to make a perimeter will result in several problems. the first of which is that an alert player will kill the constructor during the 5 hour build time. the second problem is a problem with ANY turret, is that it lacks engines. meaning it can only cover a limited range.

taking duel II as an example. in early and mid game u have 3 places to cover, expansion, and two mains. lets make the (slightly naughty) assumption that you place everything perfectly at your expansion and manage to cover all your miners (hard against long range things like rhienns) and your expansion is 100% safe from attack, and not even mort would dare assault it. then the enemy will go straight for your main moons. unless u wanna make 2 perimeters early on.

the phaser sentry i actually like, when i play dominion, i include 1 at my exp if for some reason i cant immediately go on the offensive, but i would rather go for ships, as ships have engines. its maybe 1 in 10 times i will put a phaser sentry down.