Making fun of Star Wars

[Anonymous]

posted on February 20th, 2009, 7:37 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on February 20th, 2009, 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

No. I dont speak about Omega itself.

I speak about this small little device onboard Voyager which Tuvok and Kim did create.

This little ball has enough power to vapourize a moon.

And yes, of course it should be 1 vs 1.

Still, any halfway modern Federation ship would reduce even an ISD to space dust in a rather short amount of time.
There are several reasons for that:

More firepower (I will explain later)

Much higher manueverability

Superior (sublight) speed

Much longer weapon range and most important -  the sensors to use it.

Much better computers


Firepower: Let us compare the Standard Photon torpedo against the popular Proton Torpedo of StarWars.

Proton torpedos are some kind of advanced thermonuclear warheads. They are sufficient to do major damage to capital ships in reasonable numbers. On the other hand, it has been stated more than once in ST, that even a small Runabout, can withstand up to seven direct thermonuclear hits before being destroyed.

Let us now generously grant Star Wars "very advanced" warheads. Even then,  at least 4 hits would be necessary to destroy a single runabout.

Normal Starfleet Ships are several times more powerful than a Runabout. In fact, a short phaser blast is enough to destroy a runabout. The power of 4 Proton Torpedos, generated in the blink of an eye of a single phaser bank (and that not from a Federation vessel, but some less developed race (some DS9 episode, dont remember the title right now)  

Star Wars Turbolaser obviously are somewhere in the power realms of proton torpedos, otherwise, it would not make sense to have so many of them, when 2 are enough to destroy that Star Destroyer within 20 seconds. So they are probably arround the same level.

Photon torpedoes use antimatter warheads, something which is far more powerful than any advanced thermonuclear weapon could ever hope to achieve. If a good volley of protons is enough to bring large capital SW Starships into trouble, what do you think a full Photon salvo would do to your ohh so powerfull ISD? I tell you - Space dust.

A full Star Destroyer broadside might do some damage to the average Federation ship - but only minor one compared to the inferno Star Trek weaponary can let loose.

Weapon range: Phasers have a range of arround 300000 km. Photons some 1000000 (at impuls)

Photons can even be fired at warp speed, granting them a tremendous range in theory.

Until this slow Star Destroyed reach his weapon range, he will long be gone.  Even if they jump in at short range, the superior firepower of the Federation would make this quite unhealthy.

SW fighers.... well.... one proton torpedo is enough to destroy even the powerful B-Wing, yet it takes several laser cannon shots, to destroy a fighter. (Rebels). So fighter weapons are hardly anything to worry about for Federation ships.

And then Star Trek ships have vastly superior sublight engines.

From 0 to full impulse in what? A few seconds maybe? They also have the inertial dampers to do this without being crushed. So even if a Tie Fighter could reach this speed in a reasonable amount of time, they would simple go to full stop, laughing their ass off while the fighters race ahead, unable to stop so abrupt.

A Death Star would probably give the Federation some hard thinking, yet, they should be able to defeat it with acceptable losses.  

First Deathstar - Feds have good enough computers to actually send as many photons as they want into that shaft, and the sensors to find that weakness in reasonable time without having the plans. Torpedos have enough range to be fired from far away, and even if they have to be fired from within the Death Star shields, Fed ships can take enough beating to do so, before the weapon emplacement destroy them.

Second Deathstar - This one would be more tricky, the Feds would probably at first disable the superlasers through long range bombardement. While burning though to the weapon itself may need a very long time, I believe it is reasonable to suggest that continued heavy bombardent of the surface systems would make firing the lasers very dangerous for the Death Star itself. (when the laser shafts collapse partially for example - the beams might be strong enough to burn through that debris, but what about the effect that probably would have to the station? The beams could get out of the shaft and cut through the station, or could be reflected back to the emitter - a catastrophic power surge would happen - or the emitter explodes, which might lead to the same thing.  

On a side note. The Scimitars shields were up, so there was only minor visible damage, because most of the energy has been drained in those.

On another side note, dont come to me with this ridicolous energy stats some sources for Star Wars state. If they really had this ammount of energy, they would not need a Death Star, a Nebulon B would be more than sufficient to do the same.



I agree.   :)

EDITS: Fixed several typos and grammar errors.

lol.

1. voyager's little tinker toys are not mainstay fed tech. if they were, the enterprise would have incorporated them aginst shinzon.
2. as regards the 1 on 1. Where can one ever see a sovereign outgun a stardestoyer. The few phaser shots that the sov can muster is like a pinch on a star destroyer's hull.
The photon torps of a fed starship can do damage, but by the time he fed launches 5 or 6 of them, the stardestroyers will hve fired off many more of their laser blasts.
The comparison between a fed's shields and the stardestroyer's laser blasts is impossible due to the fact that they have never met in canon combat.
So based on what do u determine your comparative stats.

My comparison is based on a 1 for 1 ratio. Giving the photon torpedoes an advantage. Yet we have seen that photon torpodoes do very little. Refer - Khan's end in the mutara neb, one photon took off his engine only not the full ship.
In generations te klingon torps did little even after going thru the shields. The EntD's torp was targeted directly at the weak hull of a BOP which is why it worked, but if it were to hit an SD' we would generously allow damage at par with that seen in STVI when Chang's BOP was bombed by Kirk and Sulu together, or khans' hit or even Kruge's hits in ST III.
Also, if we look at DS9's dominion war, we dont see Torps being all powerful nukes.

So given the range of damage that torps inflict, and compared to the barrage that the SDs can rain on enemy ships always in conjunction with the tie fighter Rams, I do not see any way a FEd sov can match up to a star destroyer.

That compared to a star destroyer's canons shows pretty much the same firepower, except that the star destroyer is actually raining blasts on the target, while hte feds are firing a few blasts in the same time.

The fighters and their ram factor do tip the scales the way of the star destroyer.


2. As regards the death star 1. the death star 1's exhaust port was 2 meters wide, which would accomodate a photon torpedo.
But, the feds cannot launch a photon torpedo precisely at a specific point of 2m unless in a specific range. but more specifically that was a design flaw and we arent talking about intelligence leaks. If we do, then fed shields can be ruled out by remodulation of imperial blasts.. so we should not mix intelligence gathering with firepower comparisons.

The DS1 was known to have thousands of tie fighters in its hangars, and the lack of deployment in SW 4 a mark of overconfidence from Tarkin,.
Plus the fire power of theDS was greater than half the entire rebel starfleet. That was reflective of the ship to ship canons. not the main canon.

So here too 1on 1, no fed ship can match up.

3. AS regards DS2. It was incomplete. If completed it would have housed an on board shield generator and the ability to target single ships. Plus housing fighters, and no discernible weaknesses.
So what would 1 sov do against thta,.

when a sovs firepower could not penetrate the shields of the scimitar... how could it overcome the shields of a station the size of a moon.

Also, the torps of 1 fed ship have nver been shown to ravage planet areas. In fact in redemption2 where klingon torps are shows to hit the plant surface, the explosion was not nuclear... it was just like a large bomb... so where could that even when a full fleet of feds come in, ever do anything against the DS2.
Again - do not forget the fighters.

We have seen what feds can do when overwhelmed by Fighters.... they run.... look at what the Dominion's few ships did.... so i really do not see any realistic compariosn between the 2.

the major chunk of ur comparisons being based on overestimations of fed firepower combined with a mish mash of intelligence gathering and other hooplah.
But in a pound for pound comparison, a fed ship cannot cut it in front of imperial firepower.

3. the warp in warp out manner of attack has never been practically shown or demonstrated in the STU. Only the Stargazer came close with its Picard manoeuvre, and that too required skill on the part of the helmsman.
Otherwise I dont see dominion and fed fleets warping in and out of combat to unload weapons.... lol
So manoeuvrability and warp ins are pretty much moot points here.

But honestly, comparing one over the other is ridiculous. I dont even know why i got caught up in this..lol
As long as we have never seen a Star destroyer in canon action against a fed ship, any comparison becomes conjecture at best... and as we see, it can go oneway or the other.
also, let's not forget the Star destroyers are supposed to be technology from a long time in the past.
If that technology were to be brought in line with the fed timeline,**and we can take the developments seen in the EU as an example of rate of progress**, you can pretty much imagine what they could do in the 24th century... 

posted on February 20th, 2009, 8:08 pm

Look, this debate will never be settled, as stated by Serpicus that he is defending them. A Star Destroyer may be strong, but it's still a destroyer designed to protect capital ships. The only capital ship I see in SW canon is the Death Star, and by the way, Feds can fire weapons veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery far out of enemy weapon range, and quantum torps are quite powerful, and tear straight through hulls as far as I'm concerned. But that's my opinion. Conclusion: The fight will be a tie, as the Sovvy will most likely jettision it's Warp Core right at the ISD or DS (rofl), and the resulting explosion will blow up the Imp, and the Sov won't have another one so that it can run from the approaching ESD, either that, or the Sov will win because it can beam a torp into the engineering sec. of it, and it will blow up, as you have to remember that Transporters have an effective range of 40000 km, enough to get in range to the Executor or DS, beam a torp into it, and watch it blow up! But that is within range of weapons, and right after beaming, it will be killed by the hellstorm of enemy fire, and maybe the planetkiller beam.  But against the Borg, well, its hopeless.

posted on February 20th, 2009, 8:23 pm

My comparison is based on a 1 for 1 ratio. Giving the photon torpedoes an advantage. Yet we have seen that photon torpodoes do very little. Refer - Khan's end in the mutara neb, one photon took off his engine only not the full ship.
In generations te klingon torps did little even after going thru the shields. The EntD's torp was targeted directly at the weak hull of a BOP which is wy it worked, but if it were to hit an SD' we would generously allow damage at par with that seen in STVI when Chang's BOP was bombed by Kirk and Sulu together, or khans' hit or even Kruge's hits in ST III.
Also, if we look at DS9's dominion war, we dont see Torps being all powerful nukes.

So given the range of damage that torps inflict, and compared to the barrage that the SDs can rain on enemy ships always in conjunction with the tie fighter Rams, I do not see any way a FEd sov can match up to a star destroyer.

That compared to a star destroyer's canons shows pretty much the same firepower, except that the star destroyer is actually raining blasts on the target, while hte feds are firing a few blasts in the same time.

when a sovs firepower could not penetrate the shields of the scimitar... how could it overcome the shields of a station the size of a moon.

Also, the torps of 1 fed ship have nver been shown to ravage planet areas. In fact in redemption2 where klingon torps are shows to hit the plant surface, the explosion was not nuclear... it was just like a large bomb... so where could that even when a full fleet of feds come in, ever do anything against the DS2.

Umm, look at the figures given at the link i mentioned in my last post ... (and the pages full of evidence there)
photon torpedoes can have a power in the megaton range (100 megatons max as far as i racall)
that is in fact quite a lot.... (the strongest nuke ever had about 60) and (according to the website (and again with pages full of evidence)) this is far more than anything from starwars...
Quantums are even stronger...

As I stated before the fighter ramming thing is neraly impossible. Tie-fighters have no shields as far as I know and again, they wouldnt even reach a fed ship (see the ranges and speeds of starwars and startrek ships on the website and, yet again, the pages full of evidence)

Same with the star destroyer itself. Its weapons lack the range and power (again see the website) to do anything to a federation ship... Especially the range is important here.

If the evidence on the link to the overview page in my last post is not enough check the various detailed articles that can be accessed from the main page. You'll see that the guy who runs the page really did his best to evaluate all kinds of material from starwars and startrek.

posted on February 21st, 2009, 12:03 am

The Star Destroyers aren't 'destroyers' meant to protect capital ships.  They are named Star Destroyers to make people think of things like them destroying stars.  They can't do it, but it's a naming intimidation tactic.

The Victory-Class Star Destroyer is the equivalent to a Heavy Cruiser, roughly.  The Imperial Star Destroyers are Battleships.  The Super Star Destroyer (The Executor) is a Super Battleship/Dreadnought.

The Death Star 1 and Death Star 2 are not ships.  They are Military Starbases with FTL and in-system drives attached.  If you want a 1-on-1 comparison with them, get out the Borg Cube, maybe the Tactical Cube, because those are the only comparable things, 'class' wise.

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on February 21st, 2009, 12:38 am

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on February 21st, 2009, 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Of course the one problem with some of these "sources" being used is that they rely on the movies/show (I assure you the directors and actors are much more motivated by saving time/money then by making sure the next scene is done with the sun in the exact same place in the sky). Quite frankly, I am apalled that anyone here would even try to use that as evidence of superiority or weakness for either Universe, given that everything, from CGI (or almost lack there of) to badly made costumes, bad actors, or plot devices will affect our opinion enormously. The Ewoks destroying the "best legion of stormtroopers" is hardly "accurate" if we consider the stormtroopers to be actually trained, wielding armor and weapons. ...and the same goes with most every redshirt in Startrek (or just look at the Stupid ST Crews thread for friggin' sake). Manuals with "real" data are going to be the only way ever to settle this sort of argument... and unfortunately that depends on who authorized them. Thus there is no way to ever be assured what universe is actually better as this sort of thinking is futile 

posted on February 21st, 2009, 1:48 am

lets just forget about the tie fighters because they are unshielded. Any starfleet captain worth his salt will beam the pilots into the brig. there is little point in trying to compare the torpedoes of the two universes because the star destroyers primary armament is its 40 turbolasers and 40 ion canons. in a straight up fight the star destroyer would wipe the ground with the sovereign, but when does starfleet ever have a straight up fight with anyone

posted on February 21st, 2009, 2:11 am

Well firstly you're wrong with this statement.

"Plus the fire power of theDS was greater than half the entire rebel starfleet"

It was the IMPERIAL starfleet and if it was comparing CANNONS then there would only be a handfull of ISDs in their Armada. It was comparing the firepower of all imperial turbolasers in their fleet to the output of the Death Stars superlaser.

And more importantly find me a reliable source please for power of a federation type X (or XII?) phaser. 

posted on February 21st, 2009, 2:11 am

even if ties are unshielded, you need to hit them first. So in the end, is 1 sov going to hit 5000 ties?
we cant forget that easily about so vital a detail

posted on February 21st, 2009, 2:15 am

Well firstly you're wrong with this statement.

"Plus the fire power of theDS was greater than half the entire rebel starfleet"

It was the IMPERIAL starfleet and if it was comparing CANNONS then there would only be a handfull of ISDs in their Armada. It was comparing the firepower of all imperial turbolasers in their fleet to the output of the Death Stars superlaser.

And more importantly find me a reliable source please for power of a federation type X (or XII?) phaser. 

i was quoting right out of sW4 - in the briefing room where the rebels were discussing the SD's firepower.
u may want to watch the movie... "the DS carries a firepoewr greater than half the starfleet". it may have been a refernce to the Imperial fleet, making it all the more imposing.

posted on February 21st, 2009, 2:22 am

Of course its not about comparing the universes or saying which one is "better", but if you, for example compared battle star galactica (the original old ship) to a star destroyer, you'd probably come to the conclusion that the star destroyer is superior. Of course that doesnt mean that the galactia universe is bad...

lets just forget about the tie fighters because they are unshielded. Any starfleet captain worth his salt will beam the pilots into the brig. there is little point in trying to compare the torpedoes of the two universes because the star destroyers primary armament is its 40 turbolasers and 40 ion canons. in a straight up fight the star destroyer would wipe the ground with the sovereign, but when does starfleet ever have a straight up fight with anyone

Its 40 turbo lasers wouldnt really help the star destroyer... even if one regards firepower and shielding of the two ships as similar (and thereby ignores many arguments (see the aforementioned website) for a great advantage of fed tech in this area), there is still the obvious fed advantage in range, which is stated in the series, seen on screen and documented by behind the scenes info, so that there is not too much room for mistakes.

posted on February 21st, 2009, 2:31 am

*Facepalm*

Well, I guess argue on pointlessly.

[ewm90]

posted on February 21st, 2009, 2:35 am

Last edited by ewm90 on February 21st, 2009, 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

I don't know if any one has posted this but maybe if we we put a huge death star in give it the straight of a star base and a very strong beam weapon the fired with a medium long recharge time between discharges.

It would take up allot of the map tho.

Maybe if could be a secret lvl like in diablo 1,2, and 3 I have heard the secret cow level the player would be limited to a hero ship or smaller ships.

posted on February 21st, 2009, 2:37 am

*Facepalm*

Well, I guess argue on pointlessly.

lol... i already mentioned it was pointless since we'll never see feds in action against any SW ships ever.
but if we're all having fun... 

posted on February 21st, 2009, 2:44 am

Of course its not about comparing the universes or saying which one is "better", but if you, for example compared battle star galactica (the original old ship) to a star destroyer, you'd probably come to the conclusion that the star destroyer is superior. Of course that doesnt mean that the galactia universe is bad...

Its 40 turbo lasers wouldnt really help the star destroyer... even if one regards firepower and shielding of the two ships as similar (and thereby ignores many arguments (see the aforementioned website) for a great advantage of fed tech in this area), there is still the obvious fed advantage in range, which is stated in the series, seen on screen and documented by behind the scenes info, so that there is not too much room for mistakes.

the range advantage isnt much. a few torps coming in from fed ships and phasers are negated by the canon fodder ties which could easily allow enough time for the SD to get in range and use its 40.
Also, the power descriptions are more fanon than any behind the scenes sources.

posted on February 21st, 2009, 2:47 am

ST-v-SW.Net :: Imperial Fleet Size

Link disproves Serpicus. I will no longer post. =3