Warp-in Balancing
posted on January 8th, 2010, 8:03 pm
I think the big thing that will help will be the fact that pulse weapons will do the damage they should. Right now the Klingons are getting screwed over because brels are only doing 60% to all warpins and K'beajqs are a little too slow to build in sufficient numbers while getting to a far away expansion.
I see what people are saying though about the advantage of no supply for warp in. The more I think about it, it's not so much the early game, but towards the middle and later that the bonus really comes through. Once you get the Euradi yard and start pumping E-IIs and norways/akiras, you still have a huge chunk of your supply left, so you can build ships a lot longer. I always feel like the feds are relatively even, and then BOOM! Between warp in, antares yard and euradi yard going, their ship count goes way up. It's like they're pumping ships from 3 yards while everyone is still using only 2.
The dominion spend money on supply stations and maybe the the first 2 supply purchases, the romulans also have a very high supply cost, expecially their rhienn refits, the Borg forgo supply stations until you run out of supply in order to have the money to buy ships, and the Klingons spend at least 50-100 supply upfront for field yard extentions. So the other races have have mechanics that force them to use a lot of that first huge stock of supply they are given. I see now that the federation does not have this.
What I propose now is that SFC requires supply when you purchase it, let's say 100 supply (just an arbitrary number. It could be more or less). This would give the feds a supply investment similar to the other races, and cause them to purchase supply around the same time that the others do. Doing that may just solve things without drastically changing warp in mechanics .
I see what people are saying though about the advantage of no supply for warp in. The more I think about it, it's not so much the early game, but towards the middle and later that the bonus really comes through. Once you get the Euradi yard and start pumping E-IIs and norways/akiras, you still have a huge chunk of your supply left, so you can build ships a lot longer. I always feel like the feds are relatively even, and then BOOM! Between warp in, antares yard and euradi yard going, their ship count goes way up. It's like they're pumping ships from 3 yards while everyone is still using only 2.
The dominion spend money on supply stations and maybe the the first 2 supply purchases, the romulans also have a very high supply cost, expecially their rhienn refits, the Borg forgo supply stations until you run out of supply in order to have the money to buy ships, and the Klingons spend at least 50-100 supply upfront for field yard extentions. So the other races have have mechanics that force them to use a lot of that first huge stock of supply they are given. I see now that the federation does not have this.
What I propose now is that SFC requires supply when you purchase it, let's say 100 supply (just an arbitrary number. It could be more or less). This would give the feds a supply investment similar to the other races, and cause them to purchase supply around the same time that the others do. Doing that may just solve things without drastically changing warp in mechanics .
posted on January 8th, 2010, 8:06 pm
posted on January 8th, 2010, 8:09 pm
Mal wrote:I think the big thing that will help will be the fact that pulse weapons will do the damage they should. Right now the Klingons are getting screwed over because brels are only doing 60% to all warpins and K'beajqs are a little too slow to build in sufficient numbers while getting to a far away expansion.
An excellent point as well. Only Klingons and Romulans will really run into this problem, nor is it really the main point I had, but this should be fixed with the upcoming patch. :thumbsup:
I see what people are saying though about the advantage of no supply for warp in. The more I think about it, it's not so much the early game, but towards the middle and later that the bonus really comes through. Once you get the Euradi yard and start pumping E-IIs and norways/akiras, you still have a huge chunk of your supply left, so you can build ships a lot longer. I always feel like the feds are relatively even, and then BOOM! Between warp in, antares yard and euradi yard going, their ship count goes way up. It's like they're pumping ships from 3 yards while everyone is still using only 2.
This is EXACTLY my point. It's not something imbalanced for the ABSOLUTE early game, it's right around mid-game when people are starting to have to purchase supplies. Having very low supply costs anyway grants the Feds an enormous boon when they continually get replacement ships for free. Now free ships are fine with me, but there needs to be some sort of regulation so that the Feds don't still have 300+ supply when it comes time to spam those Excel II's and Akiras. All the other races have to PAY ATTENTION to their supply throughout the game. Feds really don't.
The dominion spend money on supply stations and maybe the the first 2 supply purchases, the romulans also have a very high supply cost, expecially their rhienn refits, the Borg forgo supply stations until you run out of supply in order to have the money to buy ships, and the Klingons spend at least 50-100 supply upfront for field yard extentions. So the other races have have mechanics that force them to use a lot of that first huge stock of supply they are given. I see now that the federation does not have this.
What I propose now is that SFC requires supply when you purchase it, let's say 100 supply (just an arbitrary number. It could be more or less). This would give the feds a supply investment similar to the other races, and cause them to purchase supply around the same time that the others do. Doing that may just solve things without drastically changing warp in mechanics .
All the more reasoning
.
posted on January 8th, 2010, 8:13 pm
posted on January 8th, 2010, 8:15 pm
yandonman wrote:@Dominus
Spawning fleets indefinately isn't a problem - late game the warp in ships aren't as powerful. And the fact one has to rank them up to get more caps their total ship count. If one is truely winning every engagement and is able to keep their ranked up ships - they've already won because they are better.
You'd have to nerf the player, not the feature.
Early game (the original concern) - supply cost won't change this dynamic as supply doesn't come into effect till early-mid game.
Though, granted, I'm no expert, I just don't see it as imbalanced (IMHO). Lots of players end up loosing warp-in ships when they rush, and that's a setback. Heck, I have a harder time dealing with Rhienn rushing than warp-in, and I don't want to nerf that one.
I say late game because it provides a wonderful boost in number of ships, and more ships are always better (and the Warp-In's aren't weak either). Your other Warp Ins have either leveled up or been destroyed, so you can keep that mandatory 9+ ships constantly. Not to mention when fleets are destroyed, Feds can quite quickly keep up the pressure with three ships every 3 minutes (that's a fast build time for such powerful ships anyway). I'm not complaining about rushing early game, I'm talking about the advantage you get from free ships late game when others have to rebuy supplies at more and more expensive prices. You still get powerful cruiser type units for free. I don't see Warp In as inherently problematic, I just think it needs a cost later on to encourage less "throw away" tactics and to cool down the idea of "I'll just keep building my fleet at my base, and harass with free ships". If you can build normally and don't actually need the Warp-Ins very much, that's even more of a problem because those ships can be thrown away and do significant damage to your opponent's mining facilities or far flung areas.
BTW, Rhienn rushing won't be possible next patch.
Mal wrote:I see what people are saying though about the advantage of no supply for warp in. The more I think about it, it's not so much the early game, but towards the middle and later that the bonus really comes through. Once you get the Euradi yard and start pumping E-IIs and norways/akiras, you still have a huge chunk of your supply left, so you can build ships a lot longer. I always feel like the feds are relatively even, and then BOOM! Between warp in, antares yard and euradi yard going, their ship count goes way up. It's like they're pumping ships from 3 yards while everyone is still using only 2.
The dominion spend money on supply stations and maybe the the first 2 supply purchases, the romulans also have a very high supply cost, expecially their rhienn refits, the Borg forgo supply stations until you run out of supply in order to have the money to buy ships, and the Klingons spend at least 50-100 supply upfront for field yard extentions. So the other races have have mechanics that force them to use a lot of that first huge stock of supply they are given. I see now that the federation does not have this.
What I propose now is that SFC requires supply when you purchase it, let's say 100 supply (just an arbitrary number. It could be more or less). This would give the feds a supply investment similar to the other races, and cause them to purchase supply around the same time that the others do. Doing that may just solve things without drastically changing warp in mechanics .
I don't think that suggestion actually works - it makes the Feds like the other factions, sure (with only the FIRST supply purchase), but it doesn't solve the problem of free ships, it just makes the cost up front more.
This is why I agree with Ruanek, Boggz, Tom etc about each Warp In costing supplies.
@ Silent93
Indeed, but big enough to make you think about it in later game. Anywhere from 20-50 should do the trick. Seeing as most of the more "special" special abilities cost supplies, and you are having to keep those emergency ships in one piece, a supply cost doesn't seem unreasonable. cool
EDIT: in fact, these vessels are rarer or older or both and thus would likely need special support anywho Smiley
posted on January 8th, 2010, 8:20 pm
posted on January 8th, 2010, 8:23 pm
Dexter wrote:No offence lad, but you don't know what i play most the time.
It's Martok fallowed bie Helev then Mayson.
Also 'bout the micro i'm glad you think you are doing ok, but a lot of us are not. At least not me, specially with klingons ... hope the patch will even the odds.
Also consider that fed ships take a long time to construct. They are almost the slowest ( borg are the slowest right now ). There only real adwantage is that you can build 2 yards with relatively low funds.
Alas .. do what you want, change, mod etc ...
P.S. Sorry for the late reply
As I have explained before though, getting up that second yard immediately means they can force out units pretty quickly - Romies are left behind very soon which matters a lot when you have a bunch of Mayson Sabers popping out with Hyper Impulse, and being ignored by all those pulses.
posted on January 8th, 2010, 8:30 pm
Last edited by Dexter on January 8th, 2010, 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
posted on January 8th, 2010, 8:37 pm
posted on January 8th, 2010, 9:20 pm
Last edited by Boggz on January 8th, 2010, 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dexter wrote:No offence lad, but you don't know what i play most the time.
It's Martok fallowed bie Helev then Mayson.
Well I guess I rarely see that. Nearly every game you and I have been a part of together you are Feds. No big deal, just saying that Feds are almost always an easy choice for people and this is one of those reasons.
Also 'bout the micro i'm glad you think you are doing ok, but a lot of us are not. At least not me, specially with klingons ... hope the patch will even the odds.
Well I only said that because you essentially said that I sucked at it ... which if Mr. T were here he'd say: "I PITY THE FOO THAT SAYS BOGGZ CAN'T MICRO" :2guns:
Also consider that fed ships take a long time to construct. They are almost the slowest ( borg are the slowest right now ). There only real adwantage is that you can build 2 yards with relatively low funds.
Some of their ships take a while ... but what the WHOLE POINT of this thread was trying to say was that the Warp-in more than compensates for whatever "long time" the Feds take to construct and do so FOR FREE. Like Dominus said every three minutes you get an excellent group of Cruisers or even a battleship or 2. I think it's great and is a fantastic game element, but it should NOT BE WITHOUT A COST. Since when should an awesome special ability (which is what that technically is) be free?
--> The Descent's only special COSTS 20 SUPPLIES TO USE. Warp-in costs nothing. <--
[/quote]
TO SILENT:
Granted it's supposed to be a distress signal, but in terms of gameplay that's not a good reason not to make it require a supply cost. If anything, those older ships that really shouldn't be on the front lines are going to need more upkeep, more maintenance, and more tender love'n'care
.Guys ... seriously. You don't notice that when you play Feds you don't have to spend resources on supplies until you are well into making the medium/heavy cruisers? Akiras and Excel II's are easy to get going and be well into production by the time you spend your FIRST upgrade.
Here: Here's a GREAT example of trading supplies for ship numbers:
THE KLINGON FIELD YARD UPGRADES:
It costs 50 supplies each time you want to upgrade the field yard. Total of 100 supplies to get 2 up.
WHY????
BECAUSE IT LET'S YOU GET SHIPS OUT THAT MUCH FASTER. It's called a TRAAAAAAADEOOOOOOFFFFFFFFFFFFFF. That's what needs to be altered with the Warp-ins. I don't care if it's Supplies-per-Warp-in or a major supply cost for SFC. It just needs an added supply cost to put the Feds on par with the other races when it comes to resource-management. Right now they are like a rich person buying a handicap sticker just so they can park whereever they want.
posted on January 8th, 2010, 10:19 pm
posted on January 8th, 2010, 10:23 pm
posted on January 8th, 2010, 10:33 pm
Warp Core breach in progress!!!!!!!! 
Emotions are were running high when I began writing this. Let's take five and relax. Optec has already said he'll look into it. So now everything should just be a discussion involving ideas of how to implement it IF he decides to!
I've already stated that I'm convinced the feds have an issue. I random a lot and out of all the races, they take the longest before needing to buy supplies. I still think my idea of adding a supply cost to the SFC is a good one. You could make the cost equivalent to say, the first five warp ins, and even though the sixth and on would be free, I still feel it would have balance. Definitely more balanced than what exists now.
Depending on how one plays, the Dominion either pay for one supply purchase and two stations, and then never have to purchase supplys again. They now gain supplies basically for free, once the equivalent cost of the stations is paid for. This is changing in some fashion, but I don't know how.
The Borg also get supply stations that pay for themselves, and after that the supply is "free". Usually I rarely have a supply issue as Borg, it's always Collective Connections and Dilithium that are the limiting factor.
The Klingons will get supply based on kills, although this is balanced out by higher supply purchases. Still, a good player might be able to make out like a bandit with this system.
And the Romulans? Not anything free like the others, but helev's supply costs are cut in half and he has a station that can blow up your cube with 13 supply. That's a good deal, and the best I can come up with for them.
Now, while I haven't gone super specific (for example, just how long does it take for a borg supply station to pay for itself. Is it like the recycling center, taking 45 minutes?
) all I'm trying to do is demonstrate that other races eventually get free things after paying for them. I still think that putting the supply cost upfront could work if it was part of the price for SFC.
And see for me, I think the exact opposite is true. It never cost the Enterprise anything to respond to a distress call. "Captain, we're out of supplies! You know, like federation toothbrushes and uniforms and Romulan ale and isolinear chips of dancing Orian slave girls!" "Merde! I guess we can't help them!" 
, exclaims Picard as he hangs his bald head in shame. 
Starfleet command needs things like subspace transceivers and lots of other equipment to be a part of the subspace communication network and become a command station. A starship uses that stuff. A Starfleet Command is that stuff. I assume they're part of the hub for the communications network, which is why you need to build one in the first place to call in ships.
I would be perfectly fine if it ended up costing 20 supply or whatever each time for warp in. That wouldn't bother me at all, since that also works. But I think putting a static cost into the station itself would work as well.
Emotions are were running high when I began writing this. Let's take five and relax. Optec has already said he'll look into it. So now everything should just be a discussion involving ideas of how to implement it IF he decides to!
I've already stated that I'm convinced the feds have an issue. I random a lot and out of all the races, they take the longest before needing to buy supplies. I still think my idea of adding a supply cost to the SFC is a good one. You could make the cost equivalent to say, the first five warp ins, and even though the sixth and on would be free, I still feel it would have balance. Definitely more balanced than what exists now.
Depending on how one plays, the Dominion either pay for one supply purchase and two stations, and then never have to purchase supplys again. They now gain supplies basically for free, once the equivalent cost of the stations is paid for. This is changing in some fashion, but I don't know how.
The Borg also get supply stations that pay for themselves, and after that the supply is "free". Usually I rarely have a supply issue as Borg, it's always Collective Connections and Dilithium that are the limiting factor.
The Klingons will get supply based on kills, although this is balanced out by higher supply purchases. Still, a good player might be able to make out like a bandit with this system.
And the Romulans? Not anything free like the others, but helev's supply costs are cut in half and he has a station that can blow up your cube with 13 supply. That's a good deal, and the best I can come up with for them.
Now, while I haven't gone super specific (for example, just how long does it take for a borg supply station to pay for itself. Is it like the recycling center, taking 45 minutes?
) all I'm trying to do is demonstrate that other races eventually get free things after paying for them. I still think that putting the supply cost upfront could work if it was part of the price for SFC.Ruanek wrote:From a realistic standpoint, I think it makes more sense for the ships to cost supplies to warp in, not the station.
And see for me, I think the exact opposite is true. It never cost the Enterprise anything to respond to a distress call.
"Captain, we're out of supplies! You know, like federation toothbrushes and uniforms and Romulan ale and isolinear chips of dancing Orian slave girls!" "Merde! I guess we can't help them!" , exclaims Picard as he hangs his bald head in shame. Starfleet command needs things like subspace transceivers and lots of other equipment to be a part of the subspace communication network and become a command station. A starship uses that stuff. A Starfleet Command is that stuff. I assume they're part of the hub for the communications network, which is why you need to build one in the first place to call in ships.
I would be perfectly fine if it ended up costing 20 supply or whatever each time for warp in. That wouldn't bother me at all, since that also works. But I think putting a static cost into the station itself would work as well.
posted on January 8th, 2010, 10:39 pm
posted on January 8th, 2010, 10:43 pm
supply is ment to be the same for all races. The Federation needing less supplies in the early game stages is intended
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