Warp-in Balancing

posted on January 7th, 2010, 11:05 am

Once again I am here to request a balance that I see as fit to balance the Federation Warp-in.


  Granted ... the new patch (which will hopefully be out soon  ) should have an affect on the Warp-ins as a fighting force, but what I feel the biggest problem comes from is the lack of investment needed to establish a Warp-in force.

SUGGESTION:
  I suggest that either:

1:  A supply cost of 50 be added to the ability.
2:  the total number of ships available be upgradeable.



I suggest this because I feel that biggest problem with the Warp-ins is not the strength of the vessels, but the fact that there is no investment in them.  I feel that throughout the many games I've played with them they are no God-ships and are perfectly balanced in terms of use and stats, so only the fact that they are truly "free" is the real problem.  Why, you may ask?

  Because in multiplayer games the SFC is nearly always the first structure to be tech'd to, they are easily able to rely on those vessels as their backbone while omitting others.  If they don't attack aggressively they can have that fleet ready with a few other vessels while they tech to larger and more advanced ships with impunity.  Or as some players who STILL play Mayson tend to do ... they use that unspent money to spam torpedo turrets ... ghetto.

  I'm not the only one who feels this way.  In multiplayer gams time and time again we see Fed players rely almost completely on their Warp-ins early game and hardly bother with any of the others.  I simply feel that each warp-in should be more than simply an ability.  Heck ... the SHIELD RESET on the Descent costs 20 supplies ... yet summoning 3 ships is free?

  If you're looking for a canon way to rationalize it just say that each sihp require it's own repair nad operatng crew in this sectior to operate correctly.

posted on January 7th, 2010, 12:29 pm

I don't think I would want to see warp in changed from the way it is now.  I like how they've done it, and making them cost supplies won't really fix the issues that we have with them.  It's really the whole Federation tech tree that needs the overhaul.  As Mayson Feds, there is no incentive to ever purchase the chassis upgrades, unless you want Remores.  So compared to other races, you have several thousand in extra resources from upgrades that you don't have to purchase that you can divert to those turrets, or more Excelsior-IIs, etc.

I would like to see SFC pushed back so that it can only be accessed by the latter part of the early game, or even mid game.  The advantage warp in has is directly proportional to map size, or to the distance between your main base and the expansion.  That first warp in rush can be killer, because most races might barely have enough ships by that time to counter it.  But the klingons certainly don't.  But even worse than that is a team game on a large map, where 2 fed players can double warp rush you at the same time.  There's no way to counter that, and I've seen it with increasing frequency.  It's the chess equivalent of checkmate in 4 moves.  Once they've crushed your expansion and any ships you have there, they can move over to your ally's expansion and take on his overwhelmed forces.  Then it's a slow road to an eventual game over.

Right now it seems that the balancing strategy is to increase the build time for SFC, but with Mayson's boon to build times, that doesn't deter him much, and hurts Risner all the more.  I've suggested having a research of sorts called "Establish Subspace Relay", which would be the time it takes for the SFC to connect with the Federation communications network in order to send a distress call.

I bet in the Federation redo, we see the tech tree changed significantly.  I'm sure the devs aren't thrilled that you can literally bypass all the chassis upgrades and still make a killer fleet.  Once you have to start spending money to get the better ships, the Feds won't have the big advantage they have now.  Here's hoping, anyway.

posted on January 7th, 2010, 2:20 pm

It might work to do something like this.  A research on the SBC (that researches FAST), in a series of tiers similar to collective connections upgrades.  And not cheap.  If you don't research any of them, you get a worse tier of ships, but still the kind of thing that fills SFCs purpose.  Better levels gets you better odds at things like Steamrunners and Galaxies.

Therefore, I propose these research levels...

Default - Mayday
Level 1 - Emergency Distress Call.
Level 2 - General Distress Call.  (Yes, it's a bigger deal, because you're starting to just broadcast it actively, instead of alerting starfleet or requesting reinforcements.
Level 3 - All chennels, all languages.
Level 4 - Priority 1 Distress Call
Level 5 - Launch distress beacon.

It would keep SFC very useful, but weaken it's ability to auto-rush, while giving the devs some easy flexibility in adding new warp-ins (since they wouldn't have to worry about something too powerful popping out right away, by only putting that ship on the table for a higher level of SFC research.  And it would certainly help with the Mayson resource issue, since if he wants to rely completely upon warp-ins until he's got his Excel-II fleet up and running, he'll need to increase his SFC research, which will be financially painful.

posted on January 7th, 2010, 5:10 pm

I don't think I would want to see warp in changed from the way it is now.  I like how they've done it, and making them cost supplies won't really fix the issues that we have with them.  It's really the whole Federation tech tree that needs the overhaul.  As Mayson Feds, there is no incentive to ever purchase the chassis upgrades, unless you want Remores.  So compared to other races, you have several thousand in extra resources from upgrades that you don't have to purchase that you can divert to those turrets, or more Excelsior-IIs, etc.

I would like to see SFC pushed back so that it can only be accessed by the latter part of the early game, or even mid game.  The advantage warp in has is directly proportional to map size, or to the distance between your main base and the expansion.  That first warp in rush can be killer, because most races might barely have enough ships by that time to counter it.  But the klingons certainly don't.  But even worse than that is a team game on a large map, where 2 fed players can double warp rush you at the same time.  There's no way to counter that, and I've seen it with increasing frequency.  It's the chess equivalent of checkmate in 4 moves.  Once they've crushed your expansion and any ships you have there, they can move over to your ally's expansion and take on his overwhelmed forces.  Then it's a slow road to an eventual game over.

Right now it seems that the balancing strategy is to increase the build time for SFC, but with Mayson's boon to build times, that doesn't deter him much, and hurts Risner all the more.  I've suggested having a research of sorts called "Establish Subspace Relay", which would be the time it takes for the SFC to connect with the Federation communications network in order to send a distress call.

I bet in the Federation redo, we see the tech tree changed significantly.  I'm sure the devs aren't thrilled that you can literally bypass all the chassis upgrades and still make a killer fleet.  Once you have to start spending money to get the better ships, the Feds won't have the big advantage they have now.  Here's hoping, anyway.

I agree.

posted on January 7th, 2010, 5:26 pm

how do you turn off the auto setting on SFC command? I dont' want SFC auto spamming ships...Im using the FO to A2 mod that put the stock stuff back in FO and im reintegrating warp in but SFC warps in ships automattically after i turn it on the first time..

posted on January 7th, 2010, 7:04 pm

It might work to do something like this.  A research on the SBC (that researches FAST), in a series of tiers similar to collective connections upgrades.  And not cheap.  If you don't research any of them, you get a worse tier of ships, but still the kind of thing that fills SFCs purpose.  Better levels gets you better odds at things like Steamrunners and Galaxies.

Therefore, I propose these research levels...

Default - Mayday
Level 1 - Emergency Distress Call.
Level 2 - General Distress Call.  (Yes, it's a bigger deal, because you're starting to just broadcast it actively, instead of alerting starfleet or requesting reinforcements.
Level 3 - All chennels, all languages.
Level 4 - Priority 1 Distress Call
Level 5 - Launch distress beacon.

It would keep SFC very useful, but weaken it's ability to auto-rush, while giving the devs some easy flexibility in adding new warp-ins (since they wouldn't have to worry about something too powerful popping out right away, by only putting that ship on the table for a higher level of SFC research.  And it would certainly help with the Mayson resource issue, since if he wants to rely completely upon warp-ins until he's got his Excel-II fleet up and running, he'll need to increase his SFC research, which will be financially painful.

  Nice idea but the Devs have already said that they don't want an upgradeable Warp-in System.

  I agree with Mal that the placement of SFC in the Tech Tree would be a good fix.  I feel that relying on Warp-ins as your ENTIRE early-game backbone is ... it's just not right.  An "emergency rescue force" shouldn't be the entirety of a person's fleet until the Akira / Excel 2 spam is ready.

    While every other faction struggles to put out their units quickly and efficiently, the Feds can throw them out and technically lose the Warp-ins without much worry.

  I suggested supply cost because the Feds already have one of the lowest supply costs for their ships.  Klingons may have less ... or equal.  A Saber costs 10 supplies and a Monsoon costs 9.  Feds don't have to buy supplies until they are WELL into their Akira stage while many other races need to buy extra right as they are about to enter mid-game.  Dominion and Romulans sometimes have to buy them even before that due to the extra supply costs of refits and the fact that EVERYTHING costs supply for Dominion.

  I just feel it's a resource-imbalance that allows the feds to:

• Expand more quickly.
• Turret more quickly.
• Tech more quickly.
• Suffer less from recklessly losing ship.

posted on January 7th, 2010, 8:22 pm

I just had a random thought but what if starfleet would only reward you based on how well you take care of the ships they "lend" you for instance all you do is send your ships on suicide runs perhaps they would start to send you fewer ships.

posted on January 7th, 2010, 8:34 pm

I just had a random thought but what if starfleet would only reward you based on how well you take care of the ships they "lend" you for instance all you do is send your ships on suicide runs perhaps they would start to send you fewer ships.

  Hmm well I don't mean to "poo-poo" but the issue I'm trying to stress is that the free ships give you the extra resources for other things that the other factions don't have anything even remotely approaching.

posted on January 7th, 2010, 8:52 pm

Aside from the fact that the free ships aren't really free, you still have the cost of the station and the cooldown period to deal with.

Whenever the Warp-In is brought up, that gets mentioned by someone then ignored by the people who want Warp-In to be reduced in usefulness.

[quaddmgtech]

posted on January 7th, 2010, 9:00 pm

Last edited by quaddmgtech on January 7th, 2010, 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I just had a random thought but what if starfleet would only reward you based on how well you take care of the ships they "lend" you for instance all you do is send your ships on suicide runs perhaps they would start to send you fewer ships.

That doesnt make sense because if you manage to keep your ships.... then how can they reward you with more ships or punish you with less without modifying the Cap?

Edit: come to think of it you already are rewarded for keeping your ships from SFC because once they achieve veteran status they stop counting towards your warp-in limit...

posted on January 7th, 2010, 9:27 pm

Aside from the fact that the free ships aren't really free, you still have the cost of the station and the cooldown period to deal with.

Whenever the Warp-In is brought up, that gets mentioned by someone then ignored by the people who want Warp-In to be reduced in usefulness.

Well, the other races either have to build two shipyards, and/or thier mining stations are more expensive, or their ships are more expensive and they have to build and do research of some kind to compete.  They spend about the same amount of money as the federation, and they don't get free ships at the end of their rainbow.   So I don't think you can factor the cost of SFC and say the ships pay into it.  And even if you can for the sake of argument, it only costs 800 dilithium, so you could split that between two ships, and the third ship is free on your first warp in!  Then every one after that is free, with the possibility of gaining many extra free ships through good gameplay.

And I don't think all that many people in this thread were seeking to reduce warp-in's usefulness.  I want to keep it as it is, but push it back 2-3 minutes so that you can't send in ships before someone has finished building their first expansion.  If that means decreasing the cooldown time so you get warp ins faster, that would be fine with me.  But remember that this is supposed to be balanced for the multiplayer experience first, so people who actually play multiplayer regularly are suggesting a change.

Again, all I want from a change in warp in is for the devs to make it take 2-3 minutes longer to set up so the defending player actually has enough ships to defend.  As far as adding supplies is concerned, if that had to be done to balance things, I would rather see that extra supply be added to the ships that are built at the yards.

[Actium]

posted on January 7th, 2010, 10:04 pm

Last edited by Actium on January 7th, 2010, 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

im a fed player ... and i dont like the warp in.
Why?
The Devs said one time that its meant to be some kind of distress call. But to be honest ... its all just not that. Personally i would try another system, as example: The ships of the Warp in will be stronger and the sfc will be endgame technology, but the ships stay only for a limited time (till the threat is over, so they can return to there work).

As example:
you got a hard battle in the endgame and send a distress call
-> 3 Galaxys or something will arrive at the point u wanted and will support ya for like 1 Minute
-> after that the Galaxys leave the area till the next time u gonna do a call
ofc this would need some cooldown

Dunno of this could work, its just a idea

posted on January 7th, 2010, 10:13 pm

im a fed player ... and i dont like the warp in.
Why?
The Devs said one time that its meant to be some kind of distress call. But to be honest ... its all just not that. Personally i would try another system, as example: The ships of the Warp in will be stronger and the sfc will be endgame technology, but the ships stay only for a limited time (till the threat is over, so they can return to there work).

As example:
you got a hard battle in the endgame and send a distress call
-> 3 Galaxys or something will arrive at the point u wanted and will support ya for like 1 Minute
-> after that the Galaxys leave the area till the next time u gonna do a call
ofc this would need some cooldown

Dunno of this could work, its just a idea

It would work, but it would be terrible. Personally I wouldn't be paying attention to any timers, I would simply send my fleet into combat. And I would be personally very unhappy if half my strike-group warped out because some arbitrary timer went off.

posted on January 7th, 2010, 10:16 pm

hm, i will put some thinking in the warp-in mechanic, but i like its handling at the moment. Of course the techtree will be changed in a future version along with the global Federation redo

posted on January 7th, 2010, 10:18 pm

hm, i will put some thinking in the warp-in mechanic, but i like its handling at the moment. Of course the techtree will be changed in a future version along with the global Federation redo

Warp-in is fine Optec! You just concentrate on making the New Orleans pretty