Sovereign once again...

posted on July 9th, 2009, 6:40 pm

Depends on the target. As has been stated more times than I care to recall in this thread, Defiant Pulse weapons are less effective against larger classes.

posted on July 9th, 2009, 6:41 pm

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on July 9th, 2009, 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sure in a mixed group anything is more effective...

This is Fleet Operations afterall

. You can never give one on one comparisons when considering balance.

So, Excelciors are good against battle ships? Ah, now we see. Sovereigns are available end game, but are good against early game ships, but for that, we have early game ships. Excelciors are good all game, for me.

Defiants are good but I don't use them enough to know what they are best for but it seems it is good all around too.

Oh my Adm. Zaxxon: Of course Excelsiors are good against Battleships. So are Sang' s: does that mean you are not going to produce Negh'vars ever? Fact of the matter is that the Sovereign is more cost effective than an Excelsior II. If you don't want to play with Sovereigns, they don't want you either--but it doesn't make them need rebalancing. And please, PLEASE stop (both of you) referring to just the special weapon as being the reason for getting the unit. The Sovereign FAR exceeds the Defiant in actual firepower against battleships. To claim otherwise is sheer nonsense. By all means, both of you stick to your opinion. However, when you begin to talk about need for balancing, stay with the facts

@ Tyler: Sovereigns all the way. The Pulse weapon means that Defiants do extremely little damage to Borg vessels (which all count as large units for damage classification). Only the Detector, Probe, Scout Cube, and Adaptor count as medium/small units.

posted on July 9th, 2009, 6:44 pm

I don't recall ever asking for a re-balance... but ok.
I was simply stating my preference in end-game vessels and happen to agree with ADM Zaxxon. If he is advocating a re-balance then that's his opinion, and he's entitled to it.

Adm. Zaxxon

5556 posts

posted on July 9th, 2009, 6:48 pm

I am saying that the Feds need a end game battle ship killer, and I think having a late game destroyer killer is pontless. I am not denying fact, only stating that these facts are not needed. The soverign should be a anti battle ship...ship, not a anti early game ship... ship. uuh, I hope you get what I mean. It would make more likely to actually use the sovereign.

This is a re-balance thread is it not?

posted on July 9th, 2009, 6:52 pm

Adm. Zaxxon wrote:I am saying that the Feds need a end game battle ship killer, and I think having a late game destroyer killer is pontless. I am not denying fact, only stating that these facts are not needed. The soverign should be a anti battle ship...ship, not a anti early game ship... ship. uuh, I hope you get what I mean. It would make more likely to actually use the sovereign.

This is a re-balance thread is it not?

ADM I understand exactly what you're trying to say :thumbsup:

In addition yes it's 'fleet-ops' meaning that an entire fleet of ships must be considered for proper balance but when a certain class is not as effective against other ships of the same class this means you need another ship to balance out whatever weakness your first ship has then you still lose because that's not cost effective.

posted on July 9th, 2009, 6:55 pm

Fine, don't read. I'll just leave you with copy paste, because I can only repeat the facts so many times:

If you don't want to play with Sovereigns, they don't want you either--but it doesn't make them need rebalancing. And please, PLEASE stop (both of you) referring to just the special weapon as being the reason for getting the unit. The Sovereign FAR exceeds the Defiant in actual firepower against battleships. To claim otherwise is sheer nonsense. (Incidentally, the Sovereign also exceeds the Excelsior II in firepower against battleships).

And yes in fact it is a balance thread quaddmgtech, so you posting here about how the Defiant is more useful for you is akin to either being in agreement or being in disagreement.

Adm. Zaxxon

5556 posts

posted on July 9th, 2009, 7:04 pm

I am not comparing it to the defiant. I am, comparing it to end game vestles of other races. Yes I would like diverisity, but it should still be able to stand up to a dreadnought, or a d'drex, or a vorcha.

posted on July 9th, 2009, 7:14 pm

First of all, the game IS NOT balanced one unit to another and I would absolutely detest this game if it became A2 again. By that I mean every single race has the exact same units with the exact same firepower and defense. Essentially all mirrors of eachother. That is clearly not what FO is about. I thought we just covered that *facepalm*.

Secondly, you want a Sovereign to be able to take on a Dominion DREADNOUGHT!? Are you insane? :blink:

. That thing is first of all only available through Mixed-Tech, so I can only assume you mean that you want it to take on a V-13 Battleship, which incidently can quite easily take out a Norexan or even D'deridex--so why are you complaining? I don't hear any great cries for a Romulan end game balancer afterall--or a Klingon balancing act either! A Sovereign by the way can quite easily take on a Vor'cha. Do you mean a Negh'var by any chance? We've already had that discussion....

Adm. Zaxxon

5556 posts

posted on July 9th, 2009, 7:17 pm

sorry, I don't know dominion ships at all, so I didn't mean that. I meant something like a standard dominion battle ship.

And no I don't want it to be just like the other ships, but I do think it needs a little boost so it is worth being used as a standard battleship.

posted on July 9th, 2009, 7:26 pm

Phew

However, that still doesn't address the point that the Negh'Var cannot take on a V-13 (not even close), neither can a D'deridex (a little better). And what about the almight Cube? If you argue that the Borg don't obey the same rules as the other factions, then you can't argue that any faction obeys the same rules. Afterall look at the costs of these supposedly equivalent units. The Dominions is significantly cheaper, the Romies is significantly more expensive, and the Sovereign is right inbetween. Clearly some things are missing from the balance argument don't you think

The Sovereign is not a standard battleship. The Feds do not rely on their battleships for the main heavy hiting core of their fleet: unlike the Romies for instance, or the Dominion. Each of the races utilizes their units differently, and the Sovereign, Defiant, Avalon, and Phalanx have a small specific niche. Afterall, the workhorse of the lategame Romie fleet is usually the battleship Norexan, while for the Klings it is the cruiser Vor'cha, for the Dominion it is the battleship V-13 (sometimes different though...).

posted on July 9th, 2009, 8:04 pm

Dominus_Noctis wrote:And yes in fact it is a balance thread quaddmgtech, so you posting here about how the Defiant is more useful for you is akin to either being in agreement or being in disagreement.

I can be in agreement about which ship is more powerful and be in disagreement that there is a need to re-balance... forgive me if my logic is elusive.

posted on July 9th, 2009, 9:10 pm

I'm starting to think, that my initial thought to increase the Sovereign's offensive value in order to exceed the Defiant's offensive value was wrong. If you watch DS9 carefully or several times like I did, you'll notice that the Defiant is mainly picking up the smaller targets like bug ships, Hideki class ships and breen cruisers and leaves the larger ones to other ships in the fleet.

Now in FO the Defiant has higher offensive value but it uses pulse phasers and as stated here before, the pulse weapons are less effective against larger ships. That leads me to conclusion that even the Defiant has higher offensive value than the Sovereign, it's not necessarily more powerful.

(And I'm still 100% convinced that the Sovereign can deliver more punch that the Defiant. Perhaps some people think the Defiant is more powerful because it was in 5 seasons of DS9 and the Sovereign was only in 3 movies...)