No Sus'a For Yous'a!
posted on June 9th, 2010, 1:07 am
So we all love the Sus'a, but I've seen them enough in online play and using them myself to realize that they're too strong. I just did the dps calculations, and they're even crazier than I thought.
Ok, here's the dps of a normal susa:
5.603x2 (since the susa fires 2 torps)=11.206. It has a shot delay of one. 1 divided by 2=.5 (since their "dps" is based on every 2 seconds.)
11.206/.5=22.412 for the normal Susa.
Last Ditch Assault susa calculations:
7.087 with a shot delay of .7!
so 7.087x2=14.174 And .7/2=.35
14.174/.35=40.497 dps!
So with the damage increase and the shot speed increase, the damage a susa does while LDA is active is effectively double its normal dps. Even with only a 60% hit chance against destroyers, the dps still ends up being 24.298! This is vs 13.4472 dps for a normal susa vs destroyer.
So the simply version is that every time you do Last Ditch Assault, you're effectively doubling the number of ships you have. It's easy to reach a critical mass of them and burn anything you encounter. Also, the downside isn't really so down, as it still has an offensive value of 18, nothing to sneeze at.
I have some thoughts on balancing. First drop the damage, but keep the shot speed increase, as that's the cool, noticeable part. Another nice downside would be to decrease the movement speed while the ability is in effect, similar to this thread. As Last Ditch Assault is already a replace weapon, it wouldn't be an issue, and it would allow ships to move away from these little terrors, and would make the vessel more useful for its intended function. Right now, even the counters don't really counter this ship as they should.
The Sus'a is effectively Martok's station bomber, and to me, last ditch assault should be about providing damage to stations. Instead, it is currently a cure all for every ship and situation.
Ok, here's the dps of a normal susa:
5.603x2 (since the susa fires 2 torps)=11.206. It has a shot delay of one. 1 divided by 2=.5 (since their "dps" is based on every 2 seconds.)
11.206/.5=22.412 for the normal Susa.
Last Ditch Assault susa calculations:
7.087 with a shot delay of .7!
so 7.087x2=14.174 And .7/2=.35
14.174/.35=40.497 dps!
So with the damage increase and the shot speed increase, the damage a susa does while LDA is active is effectively double its normal dps. Even with only a 60% hit chance against destroyers, the dps still ends up being 24.298! This is vs 13.4472 dps for a normal susa vs destroyer.
So the simply version is that every time you do Last Ditch Assault, you're effectively doubling the number of ships you have. It's easy to reach a critical mass of them and burn anything you encounter. Also, the downside isn't really so down, as it still has an offensive value of 18, nothing to sneeze at.
I have some thoughts on balancing. First drop the damage, but keep the shot speed increase, as that's the cool, noticeable part. Another nice downside would be to decrease the movement speed while the ability is in effect, similar to this thread. As Last Ditch Assault is already a replace weapon, it wouldn't be an issue, and it would allow ships to move away from these little terrors, and would make the vessel more useful for its intended function. Right now, even the counters don't really counter this ship as they should.
The Sus'a is effectively Martok's station bomber, and to me, last ditch assault should be about providing damage to stations. Instead, it is currently a cure all for every ship and situation.
posted on June 9th, 2010, 1:19 am
Last edited by Tyler on June 9th, 2010, 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
posted on June 9th, 2010, 1:21 am
Tyler wrote:If it was a 'cure all' for every ship, it wouldn't have low accuracy against most ships, similar to other torp ships. Power per second is effected by that, since you can't damage what you can't hit.
Last ditch already cuts the cloak and reduces the Offensive value for a time after use.
Except that the low accuracy doesn't matter because of Last Ditch Assault - it's still doing way higher damage to vessels regardless of their size. Likewise, that offensive drop is not very much
posted on June 9th, 2010, 1:22 am
posted on June 9th, 2010, 1:24 am
Tyler wrote:Low accuracy matters if you don't hit anything.
Right, and you'll notice that I've already taken that issue into account in one of my equations.
The LDA dps vs destroyers is still better than a normal susa hitting 100%. It effectively negates the accuracy problem, as well as defensive counters such as ablative armor.
posted on June 9th, 2010, 1:28 am
posted on June 9th, 2010, 1:30 am
By looking at the odfs. 
The hit percentage still gives you the average amount of damage you would deal over time.
The hit percentage still gives you the average amount of damage you would deal over time.
posted on June 9th, 2010, 1:31 am
posted on June 9th, 2010, 2:09 am
posted on June 9th, 2010, 2:13 am
The hit percentage still gives you the average amount of damage you would deal over time.
Tyler, I'm going by the math and what I've observed from teammates who have spammed susas and by me building a lot of them myself. In fact, at this point, they're like 3.1.1 K'vorts. I plan to tell my opponents that I'm spamming only them as the game starts and see if they can counter it. In any event, the math is for the devs, as they'll understand that part. They'll look at it and either agree with my assessment, or feel a change is unnecessary. I'm pretty sure they'll choose the former, but we'll see. I would like them to take a look at it, however.
Monsoons are good at smashing them
Monsoons deal slightly reduced damage to short ranged vessels, I'm afraid.
posted on June 9th, 2010, 3:13 am
Never underestimate the havoc wreaked by Proximity Torpedoes.
There's a reason I frequently forgo Sabres and just go straight after the Monsoon. Sure, it's short range and never gets a powerful attack, even as a vet (though it's defense becomes truely obscene for such a small ship)...but it gets the job done, and gets it done well.
There's a reason I frequently forgo Sabres and just go straight after the Monsoon. Sure, it's short range and never gets a powerful attack, even as a vet (though it's defense becomes truely obscene for such a small ship)...but it gets the job done, and gets it done well.
posted on June 9th, 2010, 3:23 am
did you also calculate with federation reduction special on canavers and the remore dodge increase?? how about that klingon ship that has higher increased dodge for torpedo stuff?? did you also calculate the dominion small mob control with their 2 artillery ships with troop ship combo?? what about the romulan warbird spam?? several warbird with special should be able to reduce their damage by 100% ( if you have 10 warbirds) and as for borg... well borg = dode spam and susa's go down to their demise~ if you include some EM scubes then susa's are fucked up.. and can't retreat/cloak as soon as they gain the energy to cloak.. 
posted on June 9th, 2010, 3:41 am
Well, just dont spam susas then xD
Looks to mal
Looks to mal
posted on June 9th, 2010, 3:45 am
Guys ... you're coming up with "what-ifs" when that's not the point here.
@ Tyler: YES. 60% means that the AVERAGE will be 6 out of 10 shots hit. If you'd like to make a point by saying that it won't always be 6 that hit and might be 3, then you'll have to concede that sometimes it will be 10/10 shots that hit, thus we have the entire purpose of an AVERAGE.
Y'all need to look at the math here. The drawback to LDA is not really a drawback. That's one of the main points here. Mal is saying "fine, the dps on the Susa is MASSIVE but we can deal with it. Just make sure that using such enormous firepower comes at a cost."
I always thought the drawback to LDA should be something more as it's not much of a "Last Ditch" if there's no sacrifice.
@ Tyler: YES. 60% means that the AVERAGE will be 6 out of 10 shots hit. If you'd like to make a point by saying that it won't always be 6 that hit and might be 3, then you'll have to concede that sometimes it will be 10/10 shots that hit, thus we have the entire purpose of an AVERAGE
.Y'all need to look at the math here. The drawback to LDA is not really a drawback. That's one of the main points here. Mal is saying "fine, the dps on the Susa is MASSIVE but we can deal with it. Just make sure that using such enormous firepower comes at a cost
."I always thought the drawback to LDA should be something more as it's not much of a "Last Ditch" if there's no sacrifice
.posted on June 9th, 2010, 4:03 am
Maybe I should have clarified.
In Mulitplayer, even small ships with 40% miss chances to torpedoes will get boned when Last Ditch Assault is active. You can't micro enough Proxy Torps to take out enough susas for it to matter. I'm really not trying to sound like a jerk here, but can you tell me just how many proxy torps it takes to outright kill a susa? I can because I've looked at the odfs, found the damage a proxy torp does to a susa, and divided that number by the total amount of hitpoints a susa has.
Beams do less base damage than pulses and torpedoes (You can find this out from RCIX's modding kit), but they don't have the weaknesses that pulses and torpedoes do, so they're not the answer.
It's quite a simple matter for a Klingon player to extend a yard while building the field research, and quickly pump out all the susa they will ever need. The main idea I'm trying to get across is that destroyers, which should normally counter susas quite nicely, are not up to the job when you "press the button" on your susas. Then all you have to do is stay in range and wait for the other fleet to go away to the great beyond.
Part 2
I can because I know what the percentages are and can look them up if I forget. I'll only post it if you're able to do the same. I think it's only fair that you meet me half way.
"That Klingon ship? Torpedo stuff? Yes, I know the one you're talking about. The hit chance is in the weapon odf for the susa.
Crystal Meth?
You realize there's more than one romulan warbird out there, don't you? And that they all have a 100% chance to be hit? You sound like you're not really sure how stealth field works, do you.
Out of all of them, 2x intercept dodes (which have been clearly shown to be bugged and WAY too powerful) might be able to handle them. It says something if you have to use an bugged ability to counter something, doesn't it?
I'm not trying to be offensive, but as Boggz has said, all the arguments are missing the point completely. I understand that I'm speaking to a small crowd when I discuss the numbers, but I've also seen it too many times in game now to be convinced otherwise. Again, the devs will only need to look at the first post to get what's going on, and they'll either agree or disagree. And the math doesn't lie.
But if the only way to explain it to those who are not so "number crunch" oriented, is to start susa spamming in all my games, I can do that. It'll be some fun wins for me, and enough people will get pissed once they see it and call for a change. So I've got my solution. Boggz, let's go spamming!
In Mulitplayer, even small ships with 40% miss chances to torpedoes will get boned when Last Ditch Assault is active. You can't micro enough Proxy Torps to take out enough susas for it to matter. I'm really not trying to sound like a jerk here, but can you tell me just how many proxy torps it takes to outright kill a susa? I can because I've looked at the odfs, found the damage a proxy torp does to a susa, and divided that number by the total amount of hitpoints a susa has.
Beams do less base damage than pulses and torpedoes (You can find this out from RCIX's modding kit), but they don't have the weaknesses that pulses and torpedoes do, so they're not the answer.
It's quite a simple matter for a Klingon player to extend a yard while building the field research, and quickly pump out all the susa they will ever need. The main idea I'm trying to get across is that destroyers, which should normally counter susas quite nicely, are not up to the job when you "press the button" on your susas. Then all you have to do is stay in range and wait for the other fleet to go away to the great beyond.
Part 2
did you also calculate with federation reduction special on canavers and the remore dodge increase??
I can because I know what the percentages are and can look them up if I forget. I'll only post it if you're able to do the same. I think it's only fair that you meet me half way.
how about that klingon ship that has higher increased dodge for torpedo stuff??
"That Klingon ship?
Torpedo stuff? Yes, I know the one you're talking about. The hit chance is in the weapon odf for the susa. did you also calculate the dominion small mob control with their 2 artillery ships with troop ship combo??
Crystal Meth?what about the romulan warbird spam?? several warbird with special should be able to reduce their damage by 100% ( if you have 10 warbirds)
You realize there's more than one romulan warbird out there, don't you? And that they all have a 100% chance to be hit? You sound like you're not really sure how stealth field works, do you.
Out of all of them, 2x intercept dodes (which have been clearly shown to be bugged and WAY too powerful) might be able to handle them. It says something if you have to use an bugged ability to counter something, doesn't it?
I'm not trying to be offensive, but as Boggz has said, all the arguments are missing the point completely. I understand that I'm speaking to a small crowd when I discuss the numbers, but I've also seen it too many times in game now to be convinced otherwise. Again, the devs will only need to look at the first post to get what's going on, and they'll either agree or disagree. And the math doesn't lie.
But if the only way to explain it to those who are not so "number crunch" oriented, is to start susa spamming in all my games, I can do that. It'll be some fun wins for me, and enough people will get pissed once they see it and call for a change. So I've got my solution. Boggz, let's go spamming!
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