Neghvar

posted on October 12th, 2011, 2:51 pm

Just yesterday i was klingons and i teched straight to vutpa and luspet and only built 2 briels in the mean time, just because i did this does not mean its a viable way to win a game.

When you used those neggies i can pretty much garentee that you has the upperhand in the game when you started building them or your opponents were noobs because you would have been raided to death other wise.

Those statements do two things:
1. You imply I was teching only for Negh'Var and pretty much only used these, which isn't true.
I added them to an already existing fleet of smaller ships and some Vor'cha. The Negh'Var and Vor'cha simply were the last ships standing (after destroying two fleets and several important structures).

2. You say my opponents were either noobs (nope) or I had the upper hand (also nope) when I fielded the Negh'Var.
The option you didn't consider is that the game was running rather balanced, I was expanding alot and took the effort to use the additional resources. My klingon opponent was closest to my base and his fleet-composition wasn't that much different from my own; except he had no Negh'Var. It's about having or not having sometimes.

[MrXT]

posted on October 12th, 2011, 3:51 pm

Last edited by MrXT on October 12th, 2011, 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

when using empirical observations to support your argument its not recommended to question the validity of empirical observations.

I can't see a terrible issue with the Neghvar right now, but let's see how it plays out in the next patch.

Well the simple fact is that the neggie is even less used than a cube should beg the question "is this really that useful" it takes ages to get to, it takes ages to research its specials so something needs to be done to tweak its usefulness and MAKE people want to tech to it for more than just asthetic reasons or rearrange te tech tree so there are alternative ways of reaching it faster, not too fast because it is a strong ship but atm the luspet, vorcha and vutpa can easyly do the same roles in fleet battles or even raiding.

posted on October 12th, 2011, 5:24 pm

I can't see a terrible issue with the Neghvar right now, but let's see how it plays out in the next patch.

And you derive that from what? Your magic crystal ball? Or do you have any valid data about that? I mean you do the balancing so you must have something right?

posted on October 12th, 2011, 5:42 pm

Jesus guys, chill out 


  With few exceptions - any ship with an offensive passive TENDS to be a situational ship to field.  Offensive passives have proportionally bigger drawbacks than do defensive passives so they are less generalized and more specialized.  Specialized means you don't field them as often for the most part.

  The Neggie is pretty much a Station/Turret Buster and a counter to those specific units.  While I agree that the poor Klingon TWA ships tend to get railed in practical games by the things they are intended to counter, they do still have their place.

  Neggies with Weapon Overload are essentially a game-winner against things like large Borg targets.

posted on October 12th, 2011, 6:35 pm

Jesus guys, chill out 


   With few exceptions - any ship with an offensive passive TENDS to be a situational ship to field.  Offensive passives have proportionally bigger drawbacks than do defensive passives so they are less generalized and more specialized.  Specialized means you don't field them as often for the most part.

   The Neggie is pretty much a Station/Turret Buster and a counter to those specific units.  While I agree that the poor Klingon TWA ships tend to get railed in practical games by the things they are intended to counter, they do still have their place.

   Neggies with Weapon Overload are essentially a game-winner against things like large Borg targets.

Im chill, just expressing my opinion, why dont you chill ^^ wait what your already chill? i guess your expressing your opinion too.

The neggie and its overload is strong yes but you can get the same kind of a effect with the vorcha and the poleron torp, instead of doing high damage and having your torp disabled for a while (which is bad btw) you do a little damage and disable a ton of crap of the target (like a cube), there isnt much a neggie can do right now that makes it worth going through all the trouble to get it when the same effects can be achieved with other ships.

posted on October 12th, 2011, 6:36 pm

First, since the last post, this thread seems to have just been ridiculing the Neghvar as somewhat useless, or to hard to get to... by some. Useful at times by others, in the right circumstances.

So, I don't want anything to change as far the as the Neghvar goes... I agree, when you reach it, it is very powerful.

It's the getting to it part I want to discuss. Maybe this makes it a different thread, because this one is called Neghvar.

But in the getting to it part, I think introducing a new ship would be useful. Give the Klingons an in-between option to help out.

For instance, the battle yard gets an additional large battleship that it can build. However, it is a really awkward one. In order to build it, you first have to build your Imperial Yard. Then, the ship becomes buildable in the battle yard. The Imperial yard requires research stations, but they decide that Imperial yard is really for the select elite, Neghvar and so forth what have you. But they give a ship to the battle yard, a large battleship, slightly faster and good to use for the time being, while you do your research and all to get the Neggie out. I don't maybe its stupid idea, but whatever, I'm just saying give the Klingons something while they work for Neghvar, and not leave them with just medium class ship spam... because what else do Klingons build.

And... @ Optec. My gameplay doesn't suit battleships, I don't want my request to come off the wrong way, ... namely as being I want the Klingons to soar with half a dozen battleship options... Cause I don't want that. But I do want them to have late game options. I noticed this right away, when I first started a year or so ago. I was posting all the time about trying to beat Merciless for the first time. I eventually figured out the only reason I hadn't done it so much faster, was that in every game I played, lol I was trying to get the Neghvar out! This, and that in contrast with the AI fed fleet, every way to achieve doing this meant that when they were starting to send out e2s, sovereigns, and the like, I was still going around with Vorcha but not really well. And so, eventually I just stopped, and gave up on anything past battle yard, and got a booming economy. I had a nickname for it, refinery cannon fodder! lol I just sent extra constructors all over large maps building lots and and lots of moons. And it distracted AI ships.

So, it isn't really about fantastic battleships. It's about the whole feel of the faction. At the moment, it's like a tree hanging off a cliff, with the tip always getting hit by lightning, and storm and wind or something. The beginning early game is fine, your rooted and well grounded to the earth. But then the later into the game you go, if you try to climb the tech tree, you just get zapped because the other factions, comparatively, can do it a bit better. It's not about the ability of the Neghvar.. of course it is a good ship. But climbing to it is annoying. And it feels like going after your own large ships, just allows other factions to dominate the game against you. So you are forced into medium ship build spam. So. One more battleship, near the end of battle yard, or in the Imperial yard, with a cloak, fair strength, decent cost. This ties us over while going for neghvar. You get bigger teeth, but can still wait for the research. Well ideally this is how I imagine it going. Because I don't want to change it so that you get the neghvar too too easily, just need another large ship.

K, well, I'm almost just praying for someone to say, we get your point, and MAYBE agree! but I'm going to shut up about it now. I feel I've said everything I've meant to. But I just repeat it in every post... that are long. So I don't want to type all this another time. But, yeah.

Introduce another large battleship to help transition towards the Neghvar battleship. This gives more diversity in facing other factions, and their end game fleets. And hopefully just gives the Klingons an explosive new end game option. Seeing as I don't know what the next patch as in store... hard to see what is the best route. But I think this would help. Then, after reaching the newly introduced battleship, people would be able to mitigate their time and resources, to make a more timely entrance for the great Neggie.

Just agree with me, and have yourself a nice day! haha, cause theres really nothing else I add to any of these posts one after the next

posted on October 12th, 2011, 8:15 pm

If the Vutpa was easier to get it would be exactly what you demand . It is a battleship with decent stats situated at the end of the battle yard. But the need for the weapons depot already decreases her uses. On the one hand the Klingon tech tree on the whole is quite long and static and on the other hand the Vor'cha, Sang and Polaron field are effective in a way that really makes you think about the need of something larger.

[godsvoice]

posted on October 12th, 2011, 9:10 pm

Last edited by godsvoice on October 12th, 2011, 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hmm. Well. For a long time I considered that argument. Mainly, Vutpa and Vorcha are good buffers. Sang I don't feel is really a contender for what I'm saying. Though I understand you are stating it's usefulness mostly.

So the argument being, those disregard the need for something larger.

I'm limited here. Because I speak from AI games. But my overall sense of this, is that those ships are too temporary to sustain the game until Neghvar.

I agree, they are rather useful for a certain period. In my AI games, I can build an economy to sustain two field yards, both spamming, Kvorts, and Kbeajqs continuously. Also, I can build up to three Battle Yards. But let's say two for safety. So I can build either Vorcha out of both. or Vorcha and Vutpa. So, essentially, a combination of two if I want straight spam. Or, I can just filter them through in both yards. Build a single vorcha, then a single qawduj, single  vutpa, etc. (like combination of any two, from vorcha, qawduj, vutpa, sang, etc)

In my thinking, because of how the research stations work, its sort of nonsensical to go for a strategy of building them all. I can build depot to get vorcha, and work really well with qawduj and vorcha. When necessary go to vutpa. But it is a real process. You can't just go in as Klingons thinking you can build every ship from battle yard... in my opinion. Because you can't. The research stations mess it all up. Are you really gonna build all those research stations so quickly, just to get a couple more ships in your queue? I think it is more realistic to say that you focus on any two, and build a strategy from there. So vutpa and vorcha is fine. Let's go with that.

If you did have vutpa vorcha mix, I think it works for a time, but because of what you spend in building to this, with stations and all, then actually getting a fair number of them out, ... I would just guess because I don't have online experience, that other races can get to their large vessels faster and squash you out a bit. So either you do this, and accept that you can't beat them to large vessels, thereby not going to neghvar, and just producing mass amounts of vutpa and vorcha, or you try to get to neghvar but lose the race.

I dunno, but are you just saying that Klingons can pretty much rely on everything before their larger vessels to get the work done? Like, are you ignoring the transition entirely, saying they don't need it? How do you make it work, going from building battle yard, research stations, imperial yard, and further research, WHILE also maintaining your opponents ship classes.

In most of the games I play, AI can beat me to large tier vessels. As klingons, against federation I feel the first tipping point is when akira and e2s come out. Akiras obviously come first. In return, I think the right response is qawduj.vorcha. So I've learned to get to qawduj and vorchas before they reach the e2s. They get akiras out, but before any e2s get out, I'm ready with vorchas and qawdujs... with numbers. BUT, if I go further, and try to get imperial yard and Neggies in anticipation for the sovereigns and defiants, etc... it is much more of a struggle. So, I dunno. I would just say that while on paper, it looks like Klingons have it neat and proper... really, they have some problems.

edit: the problem only understood in the context of playing as Klingons in the hopes of playing a long game with your entire tech tree. you can cut it short, and play for a medium game up to battle yard.. sure. But other factions have safety knowing they have end game options. So the problem is just that, how confidently can the Klingon player say is long game chances are?

posted on October 13th, 2011, 12:11 am

Guys, chill out... like I said.  There's no need to get personal here 


  Bottom Line: the Neggie is a great ship for it's cost, it's just very rare to see because it's most efficient uses are somewhat limited.  Let's leave it at that for the moment.  Optec has said for ages that there will be race redoes and things will change dramatically.  I'm sure the Klingons are no exception.

 
  Just say your piece and be done with it .  No need to begin rattling one another.

posted on October 13th, 2011, 2:13 am

@Lt Cmmnder.

Sorry, you're right. You said if Vutpa was easier to get... that would be ideal.

Um, yeah possibly...

If Vutpa and Vorcha were both field able at the same time... if it functions well, could be.

It's not large, but as long as it can handle its own against other factions and their early battleships, that might work.

Can't say for certain though. Isn't that the one where torpedoes always hit?

Might be good for klingons to get their hands on that sooner then.

posted on October 13th, 2011, 2:56 am

Not sure what you mean, godsvoice.

  The Vutpa has some unique attributes: 

High torpedo dodge rate.
360 degree firing arc
Unguided and SPLIT torpedo racks that hit two targets
Manual Targeting

  That's just the vanilla Vutpa.  It's a really cool ship and it's uses are complimentary to the Vorcha, but it's tech is higher.  Making the Vutpa available essentially at the same game-time as one could make a Vorcha would change some balance around as their would be another manual targeting ship out there, as well as the torpedo evasion.  I think that, if the O-Depot could no longer require the armory that would be a great idea, but the Luspet and Neghvar would have to require both Armory and O-Depot to make sure new fast teching occurred.

  Also I think that the Vutpa's active decloaking ability might have to be shifted to the imperial Research yard to avoid it being available too quickly.

posted on October 13th, 2011, 3:30 am

You know what, I've been inspired to create a Sovereign thread from this thread .  You know Sovereigns are hard to get to too! . I mean you can technically rush a Negh Var and it only takes a little slightly longer to rush a Vorcha.

[godsvoice]

posted on October 13th, 2011, 4:57 am

Last edited by godsvoice on October 13th, 2011, 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Boggz, which post were you responding to? Sorry, I'm a little confused now, because I think I went off on a tangent... I misread Cmdr's post to begin with... so now it's sort of disorientating seeing what I said. lol i'm looking back over stuff, and i'm not even sure what i'm saying anymore lol. i think i might be a little bit overactive in this post lately, i'm just rambling same stuff. need to clear things out in my head.

I think I misread Lt Cmdr's post the first time around. He was suggesting getting the Vutpa earlier in the game.

In my first post, I was thinking he just meant that the vutpa qualified as an earlier battleship, therefore problem solved. But now, oddly enough I'm having troubles remembering when you get the vutpa and how it all works out. Does it come into play right alongside with the Vorcha? After you build the one research station? As I might have hinted, my main build is a qawduj and Vorcha mix... I have tested vutpa, but as i guess it went, I've chosen to work with Vorcha and Qawduj more often.

So, yeah, actually haven't played any games with this in mind recently... i.e. getting to neghvar. But I have tried to do the transitions in the past in a variety of ways. And it just always seems like it is a drag to get to the Neghvar. No matter what you do. And yeah, as for the Vutpa, I just don't know. I'd have to look into during a future game.

It has just seemed natural to me for the Klingons to get an in-between ship before Neghvar to help out with the research time and all.

At the moment, personally, it seems a better choice to limit research station progression, and build multiple battle yards. I focus on Vorcha and Qawduj, with Vutpa and Luspet somewhat. But mainly, I just get Kvorts, Kbeajqs, Qawduj, and Vorchas... a few fleets of those and crush all AI expansions. Once the AI is crippled, yeah, going to neghvar is just icing on the cake to finish it off. But I don't know an easy way to try to match with the other races while working up towards neghvar. This might just be a limitation of AI games like everyone suggests. You need numbers, quantity, not quality.

But, also, I think my request has other merits. Just giving Klingons some variety. funny posted about difficulties in getting to sovereigns... which I would also agree with, to get the special, and chassis three. But the glaring difference is that with feds, you get e2s, avalons, etc. plus the free warping battleships, either galaxy, or descent. sometimes ambassador, which I'm not sure where that falls as for being a battleship, but it seems like its decent to me. Obviously, you can't pick when you get your large battleships from warpins, but you can always get a descent. and invariably, galaxies and such do warpin. but for klingons. their only aim is the neghvar. so either they scrap going for the long tech up and go for numbers of medium ships (which is cool), or struggle to climb the tree. I'm just thinking overall, find an easier way to climb it, maybe with an extra branch along the way... i.e. being new battleship.

On top of this.. I'm just brainwashed by the AI. I think I'm really used to the timeline of the AI's ship production for feds, and Dominion, when it gets to the higher tier vessels. And I find it hard to match it, but oddly enough, even though the AI spams ships, I can usually do a better job with ship production than it does. Between a solid turret defence, and the right combos of ships, with good economy. Probably because the AI's design is all preset. So it doesn't jump ahead to quickly. It builds sabers. Then intrepids.monsoons. Then akiras. Then e2s. lol. kinda easy to get the hang of it after enough time with it.

but yeah. good points with vutpa. good firing arc, and torpedoes etc. just slightly lost. are you saying it's already good the way it is? or that making it earlier would be good/bad?

edit: cough* and its late. and sleep has been a little limited past few days. ha think its catching up with me. so yeah.. haha bit to much posting here i think. forgetting stuff. sorry if I'm not making sense anymore. the posts earlier in the thread should be more coherent though... hopefully   :blush:

posted on October 13th, 2011, 5:05 am

Dunno, man.  I can't read a wall of text like that.

  If you want to get a precise point across try and be concise.

posted on October 13th, 2011, 5:08 am

no worries. i'ma head to bed.

theres no big problem here anyway. devs will figure it all out and patches are always good.

the only point: klingons would probably benefit with a wider selection of battleships, being one more, along with the neghvar. just to ease the length of their tech up. cause right now, all they have is neggie, and it isn't the most practical ship to build.

yes?