Neghvar

posted on October 9th, 2011, 5:17 pm

then let them disable weapons or life systems

posted on October 9th, 2011, 5:23 pm

I'll just point out that sensors going out would do diddly unless every single ship would be disabled every time. You can imagine how well that'd go over

give nanites higher chances to disable sensors (more than the current chance for engines). then in some battles all the ships will lose sensors and the fleet cant shoot a diamond that is running, and in others not enough ships would be disabled to have this effect. leaving sensor platforms unaffected would mean that nanites are far more effective at protecting the diamond/cube in a retreat, than in an attack. maybe make all stations immune, so thay the nanites are practically useless on the attack.

also having an entire fleet without sensors sounds bad when trying to chase a diamond, but if you can get even 1 ship close to the diamond, then it will spot for the rest. so a skilled player can get up close and swarm the diamond.

also i believe that if a system is disabled (flashing yellow) and takes damage to its hitpoints, it becomes destroyed (red). this sensor damage could add up if the recipient doesnt pay attention (ie skill matters if you pay attention).

posted on October 9th, 2011, 5:30 pm

With sensor disabling being an all or none effect either all sensors must be out to have an effect, or if even one is not out there is zero effect. In other words, unless you make the chance very high there will be no effect and with sensors all out it means you are essentially screwed. Not to mention this scales negatively with fleet size, which is the exact opposite thing you'd want in this situation. In other words, in small fleets it would be horrendous, and in large fleets totally useless.

posted on October 9th, 2011, 5:46 pm

With sensor disabling being an all or none effect either all sensors must be out to have an effect, or if even one is not out there is zero effect. In other words, unless you make the chance very high there will be no effect and with sensors all out it means you are essentially screwed.

yes i know this. having all sensors out wouldnt screw you completely, as ships still have sensors at a very short range. so you could still shoot an enemy ship if you get close enough. it would reward good positioning to keep your fleet surrounding the diamond/cube.

the problem with small fleets taking more effect than big fleets i hadnt considered.

i just think there needs to be less focus on engines, as that is the most important system.

posted on October 9th, 2011, 6:09 pm

My only problem with it is just it's range and AoE .  The disable chances are necessary for Borg to stand a chance against large endgame fleets and cloakers.


  However the animation not fitting the effect seems like an arbitrary oversight  that has no purpose and just makes things more difficult.  I would hope something like that could be rectified easily by enlarging the image.

  The Artillery range + enlarged affect means Nanites can be effective at beyond Strategic range - which is..... painful.

posted on October 11th, 2011, 5:06 am

Is this about the Neghvar, or neghvar in context of borg? Seems like it is all about nanites and borg.

Specifically, late game borg? Ie Diamonds, and better, equipped with nanites.

There's this record I remember... it sings a song about Klingons in battle with... a NEW LARGE BATTLESHIP!!!!! Does anyone else remember that song? Maybe... this is about klingon faction more generally.

What's that? New ships always need a role? A niche?

...

An affordable, easier to reach, balanced with other factions' diversity, and timing of their battleships, late game battleship, that would conceivably enter before the Neghvar. This would, among other things, offer a better counter to borg and all the above where necessary, as well as address long tech tree problems, and yard delegation. Seeing as borg have HUGE numbers of large battleships... is it not obvious to anyone else that Klingons have troubles when it comes to this?

BORG: KNOCK KNOCK

KLINGONS: WHO'S THERE?

BORG: THE BORG

KLINGONS: THE BORG WHO?

BORG: THE BORG LARGE SPHERES, ASSIMILATORS, CUBES ETC

------------

KLINGONS: KNOCK KNOCK

BORG: WHO'S THERE?

KLINGONS: NOT FAIR

BORG: NOT FAIR WHO?

KLINGONS: NOT FAIR, WE ONLY HAVE THE NEGHVAR

posted on October 11th, 2011, 5:13 am

sorry double post.

lets say we do solve this diamond nanites etc whatever problem.

in my view, it resembles a merciless ai battle of attrition.

Klingons suffer into longer games, so if you are against borg in long endgames when they are reaching their big badass large battleships Klingons are gonna face some problems. So, even if we do balance the NOW problem of Diamonds, great... so what. The game drags on a little while for Klingons, and then the borg Cubes come out. Which I know sounds a little crazy, seeing how rare cubes are. But that's sort of where this is headed. If we are in late game klingon with neghvar... its been a pretty long game. But the Klingons NEVER have anywhere upwards to go once they reach Neghvar... after that, its the upgrades of cloak and ion cannon, but then what? After Diamond/sphere, Borg can still progress to cubes. If need be.

Then we have the new problem of Neghvar!!!! What do Klingons do after Neghvar, when Neghvar doesn't work anymore!

posted on October 11th, 2011, 6:12 am

You could use Bortas and its nebula to reduce HP of ships and the Moq station to increase your own damage. Then jump in with your fleet. The only thing is that you need to pin down enemies. Maybe a special for the ChoNaq could be a slowing beam or field...

posted on October 11th, 2011, 6:38 am

How about  for  the  late game Negvar  a  Ion Storm torpedo upgrade like the  Armada 2 Bortas's  had.    Doing it that way you could  barrage with the Negvar  Ion torpedos then get up close with your  Bortas's keeping up a Ion  Storm around a Borg  ship. All the while  you  are doing  damage  to the borg ship with the Bortas.

posted on October 11th, 2011, 7:21 am

As Drrr pointed out: the Moqbara station is the way to go, doubling the damage output of your whole fleet. Combine it with weapon overload - see cube explode. The problem is that Diamonds reach the battlefield earlier than Negh'Vars or the Moqbara station do.
Btw a battleship that may enter the field right before the Negh'Var is practically the Vutpa . It's classified as battleship(or did they change that?) and it can tank against the strong Borg torps. Klingons need a cheaper tech tree in my opinion, I do like their playstyle of having only few battleships and rather cruisers and BoP's. They aren't Romulans or Dominion after all. I could even think of a late game tech that improves/makes cheaper their early game vessels in a way that they stay useful. The Moqbara station is quite effective for that task already.

posted on October 11th, 2011, 2:56 pm

You could use Bortas and its nebula to reduce HP of ships and the Moq station to increase your own damage. Then jump in with your fleet. The only thing is that you need to pin down enemies. Maybe a special for the ChoNaq could be a slowing beam or field...

In my experience the Ion storm does little damage to the Borg.

posted on October 11th, 2011, 3:00 pm

Well, the issue of Borg being a stronger late-game faction than Klingons would be solved if their miners got a hitpoint nerf, another change I've suggested.  Boggz and OTP have shown us pretty clearly that a really good Klingon player with 3 moon pairs can't kill a really good Borg player sitting in his base with 2-3 ships.

And I agree with Myles, that nanites simply don't offer a way out for the highly-skilled player, like disabling abilities usually should.  I think the problem really comes down to the range.  If nanites were brought down to medium or even small range, they would become a more powerful version of the I.S. bomb which is beautifully balanced.  It would remain a good defense against late-game hit-and-run harassment when the borg don't have a blue nebula, and would have almost the same effect it does now when used to escape.  The only difference would be that the opponent gets to choose whether he puts his ships in danger or not, instead of getting disabled without any possibility of keeping his fleet out of the effect.

BUT! getting back to the Neghvar.  It's interesting how the Neghvar's balance is so closely tied to the diamond, probably because that's the only lategame long-range ship in common use right now.  If you were playing Klingons vs Romulans and the Roms got Norexans, their highest-tech ship, the Neghvars would counter them.  Feds have E2, Avalons and Phalanx while the Sovereign counters Neghvar.  The only problem is the E2 and Avalon are much easier to get than the Neghvar so it doesn't serve as an effective counter.

If/when the tech requirements for the Warbird yard are increased and the Dominion long-range battleships are brought into better balance (S-7, Breen Battleship, Dreadnought) the need for a late-game counter will become apparent and the Neghvar will have a fun time.  After all that's its clear purpose, to take down the late-game long-range battleships the other races get.  They just aren't getting them very often which is why the Neghvar feels out of place.  Until now, with diamonds seeing all this use.  So the Neghvar/Diamond conflict is actually a perfect case to look at the Neghvar and figure out how it's going to work in the future.

posted on October 11th, 2011, 4:55 pm

Personally, I'm just confused as to how the Neghvar is supposed to be a successful counter to all late game large battleships for each of the other factions, isn't this stretching it just a bit?

I know vutpa and luspet are battleships. But I don't know.

I think the Neghvar needs a permanent partner, buildable by both avatars, another large battleship for it to share the glory with.

I too like the Klingon style of smaller medium classed ships... and I think that this is perfect the way it is now. At least for the early and mid game. But when you get into late games, then I think it is necessary to give Klingons a justifiably useful option beyond the current Neghvar. Perhaps not beyond has in a stronger vessel like a descent, but just another ship to share the load. We've got dominion battleship after battleship, sovereigns, warpins, avalon, phalanx and more, warbirds a plenty, cubes, diamonds, assimilators, spheres, and for all of this, Klingons get Neghvar.

Granted, I'm a big fan(of the neghvar). But considering supply, tech tree, yards, and research investments... it will be nice when we see some additional ships.

posted on October 11th, 2011, 6:20 pm

There could also be a research that upgrades all smaller ships so they become more usefull late game rather than adding new. For example there could be research that increases experience level by one until officer level is reached.

posted on October 11th, 2011, 7:08 pm

Oh man, that would be scary.  I think the existing upgrades are fine for making smaller ships more effective.

And as for the issue of adding more battleships, it's been argued before and I was satisfied with the Devs' answer.  The Vorcha is the primary backbone of the Klingon fleet, and it serves as a heavier platform than other races' medium size ships.

The Imp yard's 3 ships cover almost everything they could need.  They have a long-range damage dealer for making a Kling-roll style fleet.  They have an AOE attack for killing large numbers of small ships.  And they have the Neghvar to kill large enemies.  There just aren't any holes in their lineup where they need more ships.  I think when the existing ships are balanced just a little bit better, it'll become more clear.