Neghvar

posted on October 7th, 2011, 5:20 am

The problem is, in the game where Boggz won, I believe OTP had never faced Neghvar before.  In the more recent game, Boggz actually had a bigger head-start on his Neghvar production than the older game, but he had fewer other ships.

Once OTP knew to be cautious and baby his diamonds more, he decimated the Neghvar fleet.  The more recent result trumps the older result because both players have more experience in the situation.

Here's one solution I've been mulling over: make the Neghvar buildable without the Ordinance Depot, then split the large-scale cloak research into 2 separate upgrades for the Chonaq and Neghvar.  Put the Weapon Overload and Energy Buffer researches at the Ordinance Depot and the cloaking researches at the Imperial Research.

The Imperial Yard represents the pinnacle of Klingon tech, but it's sort of a reluctant pinnacle.  The Klingons only shell out for expensive technology that they are convinced is totally necessary.  It's the same mentality behind the Protoss in Starcraft II: pure stats first, then research adds flexibility.

With this setup, it is easier for Klingons to get out some Neghvar to defend their territory, but we all know that Neghvar without tech are a mixed blessing.  They pin down your fleet and let the enemy know where you are, not to mention they are harder to keep alive than a Vorcha.  This way the Klingon player can get some ships BEFORE he starts dropping cash on what will still be very expensive tech.  The player has to choose either the Offensive or Defensive option and buy an entire research structure just to get at the tech he wants.  By the time the Neghvar has both its attack special and its cloak, the player has spent several THOUSAND resources and more than 10 minutes of precious time on top of what he spent just getting to the Imp yard.  Even then some short-range craft and a cloak detector can take them out, I believe this tech should be much kinder to the player trying to get it.

posted on October 7th, 2011, 4:55 pm

Trypic good idea concerning the neghvar. Could someone test how a vupta would do against a diamond? With their ability to avoid torps they might be the counter?

Or maybe the devs need to up the defense of the neghvar........its up.there in the tech tree so its stats should be high as well.

posted on October 7th, 2011, 6:09 pm

The problem is, in the game where Boggz won, I believe OTP had never faced Neghvar before.  In the more recent game, Boggz actually had a bigger head-start on his Neghvar production than the older game, but he had fewer other ships.

You all have made good points in this discussion, and have backed them up with good examples, however the problem still remains that it is difficult to judge the power/lack thereof of certain strategies from two games, between the same people.

[Anonymous]

posted on October 7th, 2011, 6:29 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on October 7th, 2011, 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Trypic good idea concerning the neghvar. Could someone test how a vupta would do against a diamond? With their ability to avoid torps they might be the counter?

Or maybe the devs need to up the defense of the neghvar........its up.there in the tech tree so its stats should be high as well.

Well, the whole balence thing is actualy fine IMO, the negggies are strong ships, but i just don't think there are enough of them to make a differrence, plus he had lost most of his K'beq's, and they were tanking the damage.... the other thing about borg higher tier ships is that, even though they cost a mint, they are extremely strong, remember 1 or 2 diamonds would equal an entire fleet in other races terms, so a ffleet of 2 diamonds, and 3 spheres, and plus a couple of dodes, going up against a klingon fleet of simalar numbers, will have easly predictable outcomes.... remember, counters offer higher cost effectiveness, not the Sure beat all, massacure huge numbers of the victium class(what starcraft, SW empire at war, does).. so even though in theroy the Neggies counter the Diamonds, the Borg ship is about 4 times as strong, so don't be supprised if the neggies fall abiet easly to them.

posted on October 7th, 2011, 7:11 pm

Wrong place and wrong ppl to dicuss balance. I bet Dominus can calculate the answer with ease and the defs going to implement it...

There is no problem with balance. All ships in FO are fine and calculated well. If you feel or observed inbalances, it is an illusions or you are just too stupid to see the obvious possibilities. Or, and this is new, your sample size is too small to judge...just wait a little longer (and longer) and you'll see how people develop strategies to counter Diamonds or Fedroll or what else...
NOT

posted on October 8th, 2011, 3:35 am

There is no problem with balance. All ships in FO are fine and calculated well. If you feel or observed inbalances, it is an illusions or you are just too stupid to see the obvious possibilities.

  You outdo your A-holeness with every post, sir.  I applaud you.

 

  Nothing is perfect.  FO will always need balances.  Calling people stoopid for voicing their thoughts doesn't help.  I don't know if you were being sarcastic here because you don't like Dom, but leave your nastiness at home.

  The Neghvar is a fine ship, but it's practical uses are often times not worth the cost of teching up to it and losing your ability to move your whole fleet cloaked.  Diamonds represent the equivalent of a decent sized fleet - they shouldn't be killed by 1 or 2 Neggies.  However, Nanites' artillery casting range and HUGE radius effectively renders Neghvar impotent until you get Weapon Overload or have your Borg opponent massively outnumbered.

 

posted on October 8th, 2011, 6:18 am

That is similar to what I said before. The Diamond (or more specifically 2) is too strong since they have Long range, extrem Torps, Nanites and OTC which makes 4 Diamonds out of 2 and in addition 360 arc, high energy regeneration and decent hull regeneration (also OTC). It is pretty obvious like adding 1+1 but not for some ppl that still think there are hidden strategies that can counter this ship.

The argument that Diamonds are equivalent to a whole fleet is also weak or even wrong. A fleet can be harmed by taking out ships reducing dps for ever until more resources are spent. If you harm a diamond nothing happens until you take it out as a whole (which is difficult). That is the huge difference. There are only a few strategies that can counter a +1 Dode strategy..but mostly it looks like the only chance is to outproduce the Borg as you said.

posted on October 8th, 2011, 9:55 am

don't want to have incredibly easy counters for the diamond, as you are spending huge amounts of resources on 1 ship. it shouldnt be easy to just make it worthless with a counter.

i think the main annoyance i see with diamonds is the nanite spam. without nanites diamonds would never cause discussion/controversy.

i just think that when nanites were changed to prioritise disabling engines, that they became much stronger. as even if some ships lose weapons, they can still run away and maintain a compact formation. with the engine disabling it basically takes all your micro skill away, any ship that gets the disable you can no longer give orders to, and it starts drifting around. often towards the borg fleet which then can gang up on it. and if you try get your whole fleet on the diamond to kill it, several ships lose engines and fall behind. nanites means you cant keep a tidy formation and have to battle the borg with less than your full fleet at times. which is what makes nanites so incredible. each battle the borg can get a kill by separating a ship from the fleet. then they can retreat and cover their retreat with nanites. then rinse and repeat. micro skill doesnt come into it because the nanites disable your movement control of the ship. so a pro gets hurt almost as bad as a new player. im not sure if the change to disable engines more was meant to make nanites stronger or not.

i definitely can sympathise with anger when you get hit by nanites and the visible cloud is nowhere near your fleet. i think a huge priority should be having the range of the visual match the range of the effect.

i think there is a case to have the range of the effect slightly reduced, or the casting range.

an alternative method might be that nanites can only be cast around the borg ship, they arent targeted, the centre on the diamond/cube and surround it (as they have to leave the borg ship's nanite deploying holes and dont have impulse engines), but are more effective than current. that way you have to put your diamond in the centre of the battle to get nanites use, and you still get the ability to run away.

posted on October 9th, 2011, 12:48 am

Nanites used to be a lot stronger: disabling has actually been reduced several times. The emphasis on Engine disabling was intended to give the Borg a way of dealing with large fleets so that you can't do constant hit and runs on end-game rather slow Borg units, as well as retreat countering vessels out as easily as used to be possible .

Most specials in FO do not have the visual match the effect - this is nothing new, but will be corrected as effects and abilities - like Nanites - are reworked for the redoes .

posted on October 9th, 2011, 1:16 am

Wrong place and wrong ppl to dicuss balance. I bet Dominus can calculate the answer with ease and the defs going to implement it...

There is no problem with balance. All ships in FO are fine and calculated well. If you feel or observed inbalances, it is an illusions or you are just too stupid to see the obvious possibilities. Or, and this is new, your sample size is too small to judge...just wait a little longer (and longer) and you'll see how people develop strategies to counter Diamonds or Fedroll or what else...
NOT

I have to disagree with you on a few things here:
1. No game has complete balance, its  all but impossible to make everything completely even without  having EVERY ship be exactly the same.
2. Not agreeing with you makes us stupid? I'll respect your opinions, but not if you treat everyone else's as idiotic just because they don't agree with yours.
3. I do agree every strategy has a counterstrategy, but some are just incredibly hard to pull off

posted on October 9th, 2011, 5:22 am

Not sure if I can add anything really meaningful, not being an online player and all.. but I do play Klingons quite a bit, I think I've got a feel for them. as far as it can be against a bunch of merciless at least

In my view, Neghvars are rather powerful... but as has been brought up... there is the problem of costs and tech tree.

They can't cloak, so certainly reveal your position. And the techtree is just so long to get to them so they can be used effectively.

This has all been illustrated very well too already, although true only two games is hard to base it all on.

In my view, I think it is somewhat recognized that Klingons have some struggles with the obvious: supply, long tech tree and all. But in itself... I don't think it can be argued that the Neghvar is a weak ship... the ship is very tough, I think it's all contextual with the opponent though, and the timelines of what it takes to get a Neghvar out, (in a meaningful way, not one lone neghvar, but neghvars plural, with a substantial fleet to help it) in comparison to other factions, and their battleships.

Also, while I don't think this view is supported very much by others... Klingons don't have a real run for their money by way of large battleships. Martok has luspet yes... and its a somewhat good option, although torps always hit it, I think? And neghvar is always an option. But it is the ONLY option for taq. So, either it is a simpler tech tree to get to it that might be needed, or more options for large battleships.

Personally, I think the key with Klingons and their yarding is number of ships in multiple fleets. Getting three-4 fleets of 4-6 ships, and just cloaking on top of a few spots of the enemies. You can cover four moons that way, harass a research station. But if you get the feel for the timing for taking out miners with 4-6 ships, Klingons I imagine to be quite devastating. When necessary, join up the fleets. But I would think, instead of 1 fleet of 15... wouldn't you want three smaller fleets all over? But, it's really impossible for me to say, I play AI. So its just so much more predictable and all. 

[Drrrrrr]

posted on October 9th, 2011, 8:26 am

Last edited by Drrrrrr on October 9th, 2011, 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Nanites used to be a lot stronger: disabling has actually been reduced several times. The emphasis on Engine disabling was intended to give the Borg a way of dealing with large fleets so that you can't do constant hit and runs on end-game rather slow Borg units, as well as retreat countering vessels out as easily as used to be possible .

Most specials in FO do not have the visual match the effect - this is nothing new, but will be corrected as effects and abilities - like Nanites - are reworked for the redoes .

That means in your spreadsheet it is no inbalance or what do you want to tell us?

I have to disagree with you on a few things here:
1. No game has complete balance, its  all but impossible to make everything completely even without  having EVERY ship be exactly the same.
2. Not agreeing with you makes us stupid? I'll respect your opinions, but not if you treat everyone else's as idiotic just because they don't agree with yours.
3. I do agree every strategy has a counterstrategy, but some are just incredibly hard to pull off

Just too prevent any more pointless posts...my initial post was meant ironic. If people read the forums they would easily know that since I posted my opinion on balance quite often.

posted on October 9th, 2011, 4:37 pm

Nanites used to be a lot stronger: disabling has actually been reduced several times. The emphasis on Engine disabling was intended to give the Borg a way of dealing with large fleets so that you can't do constant hit and runs on end-game rather slow Borg units, as well as retreat countering vessels out as easily as used to be possible .

i'd rather have slightly higher disabling of systems that arent engines, and no focus on engines. because hitting a skilled player with nanites makes their skill worth 0 because their move orders are ignored by some ships and the formation crumbles. at least when other systems are disabled, a skilled player is still in control of the fleet and can keep on top of it. engines are probably the absolute worst thing to have not working in fleetops, since the primary way people interact with their fleet is by move orders. how well you move your ships is a huge indicator of skill.

maybe make sensors be the focus of disabling, as nanites cloud out the view from the sensors, so that the borg can still escape while the enemy cant see/shoot them as easily, but there is less offensive power to it. maybe make sensor platforms not take sensor disabling, so that the nanites would be a good way to cover a retreat, but not as useful on the attack.

maybe even make nanites do slightly more old fashioned hull damage but slightly less disabling.would allow you to stay in control of your fleet a bit more.

posted on October 9th, 2011, 4:53 pm

I agree with Myles on the engines thing. While the other subsystems are only nasty when really destroyed(esp. life support), disabled engines are usually immediate death.

posted on October 9th, 2011, 5:14 pm

I'll just point out that sensors going out would do diddly unless every single ship would be disabled every time. You can imagine how well that'd go over