Neghvar

[godsvoice]

posted on October 11th, 2011, 7:26 pm

Last edited by godsvoice on October 11th, 2011, 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I've suggested it several times before. I don't know if I read the devs response the same way you did... I think they might consider it, just not for the meantime (a meantime that was a while ago, mind you). I don't think it was ever ruled out completely, was it?

But, even granting most of what you say Tryptic, that yes, Technically, with a capital T, the Klingons in Theory have their bases covered I think the point is what it comes down to with application.

Practically speaking, how effectively can these ships be implemented? There is a long tech tree. Supplies are at a crunch.

That is what I believe is being questioned here... again I accept that two examples of games is quite limited. But the question is when it comes to pulling it off, can Klingons really use their higher tier vessels against factions like the borg?

Against the AI, it is a far better trade off to consolidate once you've reached battle yard. With a mainstream build of Kvort and Kbeajq that never ends, and a bolstered fleet built of qawduj, vorcha, vutpa, and maybe luspet, you can build an economy and really use these ships to put most merciless to shame.

But in practice, the rest of the research, and ships beyond this is more for show. There isn't really a fantastic way of doing it. Although I'm a bit better at doing it now, you really need quite a bit of focus in managing ship production, battles, economy, and research, structure building to make a clean transition upwards to neghvar. It easily shuts down a yard or two in production to do this, and that can be pretty costly. As that is likely close to half your ship quota.

But that is only my experience with AI. And so for multiplayer we discuss other things. But all of these things have been brought up, at least tech tree and supplies. But even though I admit I even enjoy this aspect of Klingon gameplay, and would love for it to stay that way where you really gotta work your ass to get to neghvar, and make it worth it... this could be made easier with an in between large battleship to help the transition. I believe.

Yes. Admittedly, Vorcha is pretty kick ass, even with the more limited firing arc.

Edit: So, in summary, its the method of reaching these ships that is contributing to the problems, not necessarily the character of the ships themselves. Yes? The time, resources, etc

posted on October 11th, 2011, 9:34 pm

The Vor'cha (considering that you can skip the first research to achieve the technology needed) is alot of bam for your money, however it still doesn't have the bam the Negh'Var has... Vor'cha is just the opposite in some ways. Negh'Var is strong against long-range and vulnerable against short-ranged attacks. Vor'cha is vulnerable to long-ranged attacks but strong against short-ranged craft.
The Negh'Var also has more nasty weapons at just one range less and it's faster. A well-rounded armada (which is hard to get and rarely seen when you're klingon) you should have both shiptypes in more or less equal numbers.
The only real pain in the a** is actually if you truly intend to use the Negh'Var and want to get it cloaking.
Otherwise you might want to chose the pure offensive way of just researching weapon overload, but cloaking Negh'Var are actually more powerful weapons if thinking long-term. The game really has to go on and on for that...

posted on October 12th, 2011, 1:37 am

Well, that's exactly the point. The powerful Neghvar isn't really achievable.

It wasn't really my intention to compare the vorcha and Neghvar... clearly they have two different roles here. Both are powerful in their own right though I would say.

So you say that you are getting more bam with Neghvar... but how... exactly? When you just go on to say that its super rare to ever be able to get the Neghvar. I think the vorcha is a powerhouse at its own point in the game, when it is reached in early-mid game. But the Neghvars role as a late game ship... where is the bam in this?

I think we're beyond just looking the ship itself individually. It's the process of getting it onto the field successfully, with the rest of the Klingon fleet.

So, ok thinking long-term, Neghvar is more powerful with cloak... but is their a way to do this, while maintaining an offensive with your opponent?

posted on October 12th, 2011, 2:01 am

The Negh'var is a powerful beast all on its own - it may be rare to get to for most games, yet that is not due to normal inaccessibility, but instead player choice in build order and unit reliance. Just a few versions ago the Negh'var was nerfed slightly, as it was possible to solely build this vessel and cause players great difficulty. Once researched, due to the Negh'var's speed you can even use its long range, very powerful, Weapon Overload to snipe many vessels and stations with comparative ease without even having to engage in combat thereafter.

In general against the AI you will not see the benefits of teching up all that much because you need a horde of easily replaceable early units to deal with the vast fleets fielded against you. If you wish more experience in mixed fleets, I'd definitely recommend playing online 

[godsvoice]

posted on October 12th, 2011, 2:41 am

Last edited by godsvoice on October 12th, 2011, 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Well, yes, it is. But I'm not arguing against that. And the ships it snipes, with respect, are destroyers and maybe damaged cruisers. Any combat after that would be a few phaser blasts to finish it. True. When Neghvars face their contemporaries, sovereigns, warbirds, and the like, you don't see that. I have used it for decimating refineries. So yes, some stations as well. But not star bases. The ion has its uses, but it is not an unstoppable force of nature.

But taking the Neghvar in isolation here is beside the point, isn't it?

If the Neghvar was nerfed, perhaps that is a cause for concern. The Klingons only have this beast to look forward to. So if we make it to powerful to soon, then its balanced lost. If we make it to powerful to late, then balance is lost because you can't even reach the thing.

So, if we keep the Neghvar as being at the top of a long techtree, give her her teeth, and let it be the gem Klingons strive for deservedly, that is fair. However, it all I'm trying to get across is that this could be easier if we introduced another ship for the Klingons. Really, it would be more along the timeline of right after a luspet, or right at that time. Martok can choose between luspet or this ' i(magi nary)' ship. But taq would at least get another alternative.

I've figured out how to beat the AI now fair enough. I edit the number and settings to amusement. It's not really just about that. I'm fine with it. I like tower defence games. It's somewhat like that. You just keep preparing for the next wave. I like it. So for me, this is just like getting a new tower, or toy to play with while doing that.

But most sincerely, when I look at some posts and just the game in general for Klingons, especially in comparison to the other races ... it really does just jump out to me that Klingons are behind in some ways. Supplies, long tech tree, and short list of large battleships. The supply I actually think is genius for letting them gain some in supply... so that is perfect for Klingons, it motivates you to be truly offensive, just like Klingons should be. So that isn't a big deal. But the tech tree, and battleships to seem to be a little bit more of a concern. Against AI, it's not that bad, you can have fun with it. But it seems like its just not an option really in multi player from the sounds of it... so shouldn't it be?

Takes away from the variety when a particular faction's game is localized completely to the early mid game... by necessity in order to win. But this isn't from experience, just by reading the posts of members. It doesn't seem like Klingons are getting their fair share of the pie.

Although, the HWP and cloaking are nice tweaks for them.

I'm pretty happy with the Klingons overall. But if there were one suggestion I think I could give, that genuinely has credibility not only for myself and AI play, but online as well... I think they need another bigger ship to throw around.

posted on October 12th, 2011, 4:56 am

if you are looking for a battleship faction, you might want to try the Romulans

posted on October 12th, 2011, 5:26 am

@ Optec


  Agreed.  Though I would hope at some point down the line the Neggie becomes less of a "spam to counter Long Range" ship and more of a 1 by 1 Drummer that sends all it's little ally ships into a battle frenzy like in "Way of the Warrior".

posted on October 12th, 2011, 7:33 am

the next patch will bring a lot of changes to all factions, including the Klingon capital ships. The Neghvar is - and always has been - a strong candidate for an offensive battleship and I intend to keep this theme

posted on October 12th, 2011, 8:23 am

Can't wait for the next patch!

[MrXT]

posted on October 12th, 2011, 12:26 pm

Last edited by MrXT on October 12th, 2011, 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The neggie is useless right now, it serves no purpose it would be better to spam vorcha or luspet rather than tech to neggies and halt your construction, right now its suicide to go for neggies at all unless you have a serious upper hand in the game which means you could do without them anyway and its really just for show.

It cant even cloak out of the box so whats the point, luspet can do what it does pretty well and the vorcha can do what it cant its rare, too costly to get too and isnt that usefull right now anyway, there i said it argue if you must but it wont change anything its not useful as it is right now, even the tavara can cloak straight away and thats easyier to get hold of, yes the tavara has a different role but thats not my point, the neggie cloak research is expensive and time consuming so you need to either seperate the neggies from the rest of your fleet or give your fleets position away and null the klingons effective use of cloak ....OR leave your neggies at your base and wait for cloak to research to complete and wait for your inevitable doom because you teched to a currently worthless vessel.

posted on October 12th, 2011, 1:20 pm

Mr Xt, since when did you become an expect on Klingons? The Negh Var is a great ship. One of the best in the game. Maybe if he was able to use the special on a Diamond, he could have taken one out easier. They don't need to cloak to be great raiders, or an asset to your fleet. Besides, most of the time you don't have to stop Luspet or Vorcha production as you should only build it when you have enough resources to support it...

posted on October 12th, 2011, 1:28 pm

Mr Xt, since when did you become an expect on Klingons? The Negh Var is a great ship. One of the best in the game. Maybe if he was able to use the special on a Diamond, he could have taken one out easier. They don't need to cloak to be great raiders, or an asset to your fleet. Besides, most of the time you don't have to stop Luspet or Vorcha production as you should only build it when you have enough resources to support it...

You dont need to be an expert to have an opinion, iv faced this ship a few times and its destroyed that players whole team, if you tech to it your unlikely to get a chance to raid because you will be defending agaisnt large scale attacks. you guys keep saying how its fast and a great raider ...its a late game ship where your going to be fighting large ships and fleets you do not need a battleship as a raider battleships will be used on the front line to take on fleet while your smaller more agile craft such as the kvorts, briels,k'beq ect raid,NOT a neggie so that is a stupid way to defend this ship because i seriously doubt the neggie is there to be a raider and for someone who plays klingons more than i do you should know that i guess the neggies position in the game is so unclear that no one really knows whats its position is in a fleet because its so rarely used.

posted on October 12th, 2011, 1:30 pm

right now its suicide to go for neggies at all

No, it's suicide for opposing players to face a klingon battlegroup that has Neggies within.

I once fought a glorious battle against another klingon in a 3v3 and my decision to field some Negh'Var was devastating to him. My battlegroup took out his and one of his allies' fleets (romulan and klingon) and his largest expansion. Now make an educated guess which of my ships survived.

[MrXT]

posted on October 12th, 2011, 1:43 pm

Last edited by MrXT on October 12th, 2011, 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

No, it's suicide for opposing players to face a klingon battlegroup that has Neggies within.

I once fought a glorious battle against another klingon in a 3v3 and my decision to field some Negh'Var was devastating to him. My battlegroup took out his and one of his allies' fleets (romulan and klingon) and his largest expansion. Now make an educated guess which of my ships survived.

O'rly well then thread closed, redeye successfully used the neggies once well i guess theres nothing wrong with the neggies, the tech tree or anything else because he managed to use them ONCE successfully, no more testing needed. Thanks for posting.

Just yesterday i was klingons and i teched straight to vutpa and luspet and only built 2 briels in the mean time, just because i did this does not mean its a viable way to win a game.

When you used those neggies i can pretty much garentee that you has the upperhand in the game when you started building them or your opponents were noobs because you would have been raided to death other wise.

posted on October 12th, 2011, 2:19 pm

when using empirical observations to support your argument its not recommended to question the validity of empirical observations.

I can't see a terrible issue with the Neghvar right now, but let's see how it plays out in the next patch.